PDA

View Full Version : Never trimmed -vs- trimmed hair tip : which is strongest ?



Sweetness
March 15th, 2010, 03:31 PM
I always wonder about this when I S & D and find new hair growing with the natural "pointy" tip (and not yet as long as my hemline).

I have this feeling that trimmed hair might actually be more prone to splits and that I should wait for this hair to be the same length as my hemline to trim the end...

But I also have this urge to trim them, for an obscure reason, to a flat and freshly cut end...


So, question is : which is more resistant to damage and splits ? Natural pointy end or trimmed one ?

Do you ever trim/dust your "perfectly healthy" never trimmed growing hair ?

Any opinions about this ??

Arctic_Mama
March 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM
Huh. That's a good question. It does seem that my tapering new hair is actually more split-prone, and a clean blunt end from sharp scissors hardly ever splits on me... So completely anecdotally, by experience says that a blunt, cut end fares better with my fine hair than a natural tapering point.

Who knows what the truth is, though?

Hana
March 15th, 2010, 03:39 PM
i havent seen a pointy tip on my hair........ ever, i think.
i have always like my ends blunt, and I S&D that way, too.

thinking about it, i should imagine a pointy tip is marginally weaker because its thinner.
like a piece of thread is stronger than a spider web. although that could be rubbish.

*shrugs*
interested to know what others think, though!

Sweetness
March 15th, 2010, 03:43 PM
Huh. That's a good question. It does seem that my tapering new hair is actually more split-prone, and a clean blunt end from sharp scissors hardly ever splits on me... So completely anecdotally, by experience says that a blunt, cut end fares better with my fine hair than a natural tapering point.

Who knows what the truth is, though?

My theory was a somewhat about the "triangle shape" being stronger than the strait one (in general) ... and the fact that the hair cortex is totally "hidden" inside the naturally pointy growing new hair... and not if the tip is cut off....

Don't hair split mostly when the cortex is exposed and the cuticle is incomplete / damaged / broken / eroded / weaken, etc. ?


http://www.dayza.com/Users-Photos/1268689907.jpg (http://www.dayza.com/file/Users-Photos/1268689907.jpg/1.html)


But then again, I have NO IDEA what the truth is about this either.

As its really difficult to trim them with regularity (as those new hair grow everywhere...), I'd really like to know if giving them a blunt cut is actually a very bad idea or a great one ... :confused:


(of course, not talking about the hemline itself, which is easy to keep blunt and in perfect condition with regular care... nor the damage in shorter hair, which of course has to be cut off to enable the hair to get longer and stop the "breaking off vicious cycle" )

spidermom
March 15th, 2010, 04:03 PM
It doesn't seem to matter. I get as many splits on untrimmed hairs as I do on trimmed hairs.

ravenreed
March 15th, 2010, 04:12 PM
Pound for pound, spider silk is extremely strong. I bet if you made thread out of it, it would be far superior to regular thread... but I get your point.


i havent seen a pointy tip on my hair........ ever, i think.
i have always like my ends blunt, and I S&D that way, too.

thinking about it, i should imagine a pointy tip is marginally weaker because its thinner.
like a piece of thread is stronger than a spider web. although that could be rubbish.

*shrugs*
interested to know what others think, though!

Sweetness
March 15th, 2010, 04:35 PM
This is a commercial cosmetic study on chemical hair treatments & surface damaging and may not apply to "clean healthy trimming" at all, but it's all I found so far ...


"(...) hair with exposed cortex is more susceptible to abrasion/erosion in the presence of SLS than hair containing intact cuticle.


(…) These results show that the cuticle is more resistant than the cortex to the degradative effects of abrasion/erosion, especially in the presence of SLS (...) Such an effect is also consistent with the known greater resistance of the cuticle to alkali solubility (...)

(...) It was also demonstrated that hair with exposed cortex is more susceptible to protein loss by surfactants than hair with an intact cuticle. (...)"




SUKHVINDER S. SANDHU and CLARENCE R. ROBBINS, "A simple and sensitive technique, based on protein loss measurements, to assess surface damage to human hair", Technology Center, Colgate Palmolive Company, j. Soc. Cosmet. Chem., 44 (May/June 1993), pages 172-174




Still intrigued about the hair tip per se ...

Sweetness
March 15th, 2010, 04:47 PM
Oh and another question too ; do you cut hair strands "strait" or "diagonal" ?
Which do you think is least prone to damage ?

Sorry for all the questions :oops:

Hana
March 15th, 2010, 05:50 PM
Pound for pound, spider silk is extremely strong. I bet if you made thread out of it, it would be far superior to regular thread... but I get your point.

i know that if spider web were the same size as a piece of wire, it would be infinitely stronger, but i mean in comparison to how it actually is.

i suppose it would be more accurate to compare wire to thread.

LaurelSpring
March 15th, 2010, 05:56 PM
I subscribed to this thread because now I am just sooo curious to find out if there is an answer to this question. :drama:

walterSCAN
March 15th, 2010, 05:58 PM
Oh and another question too ; do you cut hair strands "strait" or "diagonal" ?
Which do you think is least prone to damage ?

Sorry for all the questions :oops:


As far as I know, cutting 'straight' (flat, blunt, 90 degree angle, etc) is less prone to damage. Specifically, I seem to recall that hair that has been razored (which usually means it has been cut more diagonally) tends to get splits more readily.

No worries about the questions, that's what LHC is for!

ETA--> With regard to the original question: My intuition says that uncut ends would be stronger than cut, just because the hair's integrity hasn't been compromised yet. However, like the other posters here, I'm just guessing. I'd love to know definitively.

christine1989
March 15th, 2010, 06:12 PM
I have tons of those pointy new hairs too and I like to snip them off whenever I find one. Since neither my blunt ends or pointy ends split, I assume it dosen't make much difference.

Yozhik
March 15th, 2010, 07:18 PM
I've been wondering about this, too (recently gone on a S&D binge).
I'd also go with my gut feeling that untrimmed hair ends are less prone to breaking, but they do look awfully thin, and sometimes I succumb to the urge to trim :o

I definitely would not cut diagonally, though -- that would expose a huge amount of the inner cortex, which in my mind is inviting a split :)

Igor
March 15th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Personally I have observed that the hairs that grow to the full length is the thickest/coarsest and those that are shorter are finer
The thicker hairs seem to be naturally stronger and therefore grow to the full length with less damage
Even if you canít observe any structural differences, you might have some hairs that grows stronger and to the full length without damage

Sweetness
March 16th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Interesting insights all of you ! If someone ever finds the official answer, do tell us :)

enfys
March 16th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Since I only trim split ends I can't say.

If I see a split I trim it, but can't say what the end was like before it split. Was it an end that was previously cut for layers? Or a sealed end that had caught up? Fairytailing on my layers means it's impossible to tell.

I don't see any need to cut unsplit ends, if they are blunt or pointy unless I'm trimming my ends. I won't single out ends that are healthy.

princessp
March 16th, 2010, 01:28 PM
this is a really interesting thread. i tended to think that trimming helps w/ spilt ends but now i'm not so sure ...:drama:

LadyJennifer
March 16th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Oh and another question too ; do you cut hair strands "strait" or "diagonal" ?
Which do you think is least prone to damage ?

Sorry for all the questions :oops:

I've read that cutting on diagonal is a bad idea because it exposes more of the internal cortex, and everything cut on a diagonal is weaker anyway (think of a ribbon cut on diagonal, how it frays more than one cut straight).

DMARTINEZ
March 16th, 2010, 01:37 PM
Ive always trimmed these pointy hairs,but after reading this,IM leavin them alone!!!! ;)


Deb

Anje
March 16th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Interesting question.

Personally, those pointy new-growth hairs drive me nuts, because it seems takes an inch or two of growing before the follicle figures out how to put out a more robust hair that that it doesn't want to make curly hairs after all. So my new growth curls and is fairly flimsy, knotting easily and generally sticking out. For me, perhaps a properly-trimmed hair is better. But I'm not about to start S&Ding all the new growth out. If it's not split, I don't cut it in S&D.

Hopeful65
July 4th, 2014, 09:07 AM
I hope no one minds me posting in this old thread, but I have been trying to find an answer to this question. I've tried googling it and coming up empty.
In my opinion, I think an uncut hair would remain healthier at the tip since the cuticles are intact and protecting the inner cortex. And certainly blunt cut is better than angle cut ends.
For more than 2 years now (as I'm growing out virgin hair) I have been leaving the new pointed hairs untouched. I've only been trimming the hemline as straight as possible. One thing that I have noticed is that those uncut virgin hairs are nice and slky soft on the ends. (I have fine straight hair). And the hairs that I have trimmed along the lower few inches are more coarse feeling.
I'm going to continue with the way I am trimming only the ends since I really like how it feels with the uncut tips, and I am only assuming it is a wise choice.
On a related note, I seem to never get split ends. I know what they are, and I 'have' had them, but it is so rare that I could honestly say I might find one or two over a couple of years. I do wonder if the uncut hair theory has anything to do with this?
Has anyone learned more on this subject?

woodswanderer
July 4th, 2014, 09:32 AM
I consider the uncut hairs to be luckier.;)

Johannah
July 4th, 2014, 10:23 AM
It doesn't seem to matter. I get as many splits on untrimmed hairs as I do on trimmed hairs.

I second this.

meteor
July 4th, 2014, 12:48 PM
I hope pictures of hair ends taken with a microscope that I'm linking below can help a bit. AFAIK and based on the pictures I've seen so far, the best is undamaged virgin tapered hair, followed by properly cut hair (90 degree angle, sharp scissors). If the ends are splitting or otherwise damaged, of course it's better to cut. But if the ends are fine, I'd rather leave them be because the virgin cuticle will probably protect the cortex at the tip from damage way better than if I expose that cortex by cutting.
IMHO, hairdresser trends of razor cuts and burnt off ends are probably bad for hair and may cause faster formation of new split ends.

Tapered end: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=24889&page=8
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g30/kitsunethief/microscope/meapr09end.jpg

http://pgbeautyscience.com/hair-damage.php
http://pgbeautyscience.com/assets/images/twoh/Chapter%202/Damage%203.jpg
The tip of a normal hair that has been normally weathered

Properly cut end: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2004/research/2004_01_research01b.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2004/research/images/fig71.jpg

Badly cut end (with blunt scissors): http://pgbeautyscience.com/hair-damage.php
http://pgbeautyscience.com/assets/images/twoh/Chapter%202/Damage%2011.jpg

Razor cut end: http://pgbeautyscience.com/hair-damage.php
http://pgbeautyscience.com/assets/images/twoh/Chapter%202/Damage%2012.jpg

Burnt end: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2004/research/2004_01_research01b.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2004/research/images/fig74.jpg

Split end: http://pgbeautyscience.com/hair-damage.php
http://pgbeautyscience.com/assets/images/twoh/Chapter%202/Damage%201.jpg

Hopeful65
July 4th, 2014, 01:29 PM
Oh thank you for the impressive pictures meteor! This is pretty much how I was envisioning it would look like.
I will continue with what I've been doing, and leave my ends uncut, except for my 90 degree angle cut along the hemline.

Unless of course I find something that needs a good snipping. ;)

Panth
July 4th, 2014, 01:40 PM
I'm not sure that the question is terribly relevant for long hairs.

I very much doubt any hairs whose tips are anywhere near my hemline have beautiful, original, intact tapered ends like they did when they first came out of the scalp. In reality, it's not, "which is better - natural, tapered ends or cut ends?" but instead "which is better - weathered, worn (and quite possibly split) ends or cut ends?".

(I do agree about horizontally-cut ends, done with a very sharp pair of scissiors, being far superior to diagonally cut ends, ends cut with blunt scissors, ends cut with razors or ends that have been scorched. It's about how much cortex is exposed and also about whether there are ragged bits that make it easy for the end to split.)

patchoulilove
July 4th, 2014, 02:19 PM
(I do agree about horizontally-cut ends, done with a very sharp pair of scissiors, being far superior to diagonally cut ends, ends cut with blunt scissors, ends cut with razors or ends that have been scorched. It's about how much cortex is exposed and also about whether there are ragged bits that make it easy for the end to split.)


How does one know that their hair scissors are not blunt/dull? Can scissors which only are used to trim ends get worn out? I'm sorry if that seems obvious, but what are the signs?

Back to the topic at hand, my intuition tells me untrimmed ends are potentially stronger. Anecdotally, I've noticed that whenever I trim a split or a white dot, I notice a "new" white looking tip from my fresh cut end... like seconds after cutting it. Anyone else notice this? Anyway, that ties into my belief that such ends are weaker or more susceptible to damage.

:blossom:
patchoulilove

Wosie
July 4th, 2014, 02:30 PM
patchoulilove} I have noticed the very same thing--that whenever I S&D hair that's got white dots the end still has a white tip afterwards (not as damaged and big as before, but the end is still white). I thought it was because my hair is coarse, so that the sharply cut tip reflected some light or something. :hmm:

meteor
July 4th, 2014, 02:40 PM
How does one know that their hair scissors are not blunt/dull? Can scissors which only are used to trim ends get worn out? I'm sorry if that seems obvious, but what are the signs?
I think it's important to never use scissors on anything other than hair and to keep them in a dry place. Some people get their scissors sharpened every year or so. I really don't know about the signs beyond noticing that they don't cut the same way... But I hope somebody more knowledgeable about scissors will answer your question.


Back to the topic at hand, my intuition tells me untrimmed ends are potentially stronger. Anecdotally, I've noticed that whenever I trim a split or a white dot, I notice a "new" white looking tip from my fresh cut end... like seconds after cutting it. Anyone else notice this? Anyway, that ties into my belief that such ends are weaker or more susceptible to damage.
If you get a white dot right after you cut, maybe your scissors aren't sharp enough or the technique of cutting is wrong?

But more generally speaking, yes, I notice this, too. When I shed hair, I see that the naturally tapered ends are practically perfect. The (professionally) cut ends can sometimes have a bit of a rough stump-like feel as if the cut wasn't perfect, even though the ends look fine. Which is why I went searching for those photos of ends under microscope.

This is purely my conjecture, and I could be completely wrong, but I also suspect that that's the reason why some people with short hair who trim very frequently still complain about split ends. The ends are a lot more exposed in a short cut (larger area of ends, covering your head) than the ends of long hair. So with long hair, your own hair mass might be covering and protecting "younger" ends like a silk cover the same way as canopy hair seems to protect the hair underneath (many people complain that their top canopy hair is more damaged than hair hidden underneath).

patchoulilove
July 4th, 2014, 03:14 PM
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree with your conjecture. I can absolutely see a relationship with the relatively improved health of the under canopy versus the top canopy - since the one underneath is not nearly as exposed to the elements/sunlight.

Wosie, great point about the reflection of light. Maybe that is what I am seeing.

:blossom:
patchoulilove

MINAKO
July 4th, 2014, 03:21 PM
I came to like the pointy ends and just don't bother to cut them, they blend in much nicer into my lenght where blunt cut ones might have a habit of poking out the surface. DOn't get splits in either tho, no joke i probably found 2 of them in the last 3 years or so.

Hopeful65
July 4th, 2014, 03:52 PM
I came to like the pointy ends and just don't bother to cut them, they blend in much nicer into my lenght where blunt cut ones might have a habit of poking out the surface. DOn't get splits in either tho, no joke i probably found 2 of them in the last 3 years or so.

This is what I have noticed too, about how the pointed ends blend better into the length.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who doesn't seem to get split ends. I was worried no one would believe me.

I realize too that hair that has grown to longer lengths may need to be cut at some point. But so far it hasn't been the case for me personally.

stachelbeere
July 4th, 2014, 04:42 PM
I get some micro breakage on the tips . They don't seem the strongest, to be honest.

lunalocks
July 4th, 2014, 05:58 PM
My hair is at TB and I have stopped trimming. Last minitrim (that did not get all ends as my ends are thin) was 4 or 5 months ago. I do S and D. The longer I go without trimming, the more untrimmed, tapered ends I find. I leave them alone. I think they possess some kind of magic!

Seriously, they look pretty healthy to me and I do believe they are stronger.

Meli
July 5th, 2014, 06:23 AM
How does one know that their hair scissors are not blunt/dull? Can scissors which only are used to trim ends get worn out? I'm sorry if that seems obvious, but what are the signs?

Back to the topic at hand, my intuition tells me untrimmed ends are potentially stronger. Anecdotally, I've noticed that whenever I trim a split or a white dot, I notice a "new" white looking tip from my fresh cut end... like seconds after cutting it. Anyone else notice this? Anyway, that ties into my belief that such ends are weaker or more susceptible to damage.

:blossom:
patchoulilove


patchoulilove} I have noticed the very same thing--that whenever I S&D hair that's got white dots the end still has a white tip afterwards (not as damaged and big as before, but the end is still white). I thought it was because my hair is coarse, so that the sharply cut tip reflected some light or something. :hmm:

(Bolding mine)
This is, in my experience, a sure sign that a certain pair of scissors aren't sharp enough. If everything I cut leaves a white end behind, those scissors are banned from my haircare. My current pair are sharp, and they do not leave white ends after cutting. At least this is my experience on fine hair, perhaps coarse hair would be different.

There is one exception, though. If a specific end is damaged enough, removing just the split/broken part might not be enough. In this case, even sharp scissors may leave a white end since I'm still cutting into damaged hair. However, in this case, cutting another quarter inch or so solves the problem and removes the white end, leaving a clean cut behind.

Panth
July 5th, 2014, 06:57 AM
This is, in my experience, a sure sign that a certain pair of scissors aren't sharp enough. If everything I cut leaves a white end behind, those scissors are banned from my haircare. My current pair are sharp, and they do not leave white ends after cutting. At least this is my experience on fine hair, perhaps coarse hair would be different.

There is one exception, though. If a specific end is damaged enough, removing just the split/broken part might not be enough. In this case, even sharp scissors may leave a white end since I'm still cutting into damaged hair. However, in this case, cutting another quarter inch or so solves the problem and removes the white end, leaving a clean cut behind.

I agree. If the scissors aren't sharp, you're cutting the hair by squashing it, not by slicing through it. It's more of a controlled tear than a cut. That tearing/squashing shows up on the adjacent regions as a change in texture / colour / reflectivity.