Hi everyone. Once again, I'm asking for colour help. Forgive me, but I'm going to give a huge amount of details in the hopes of getting this sorted out.

Okay, about six months ago I stopped using synthetic, commercial box dyes and switched to henna. Commercial dyes were seriously damaging my hair - I could not do roots only applications because red fades so quickly, and a full head of box dye every couple of months left my hair breaking and damaged. I do not wish to return to synthetic dyes.

The problem I'm experiencing is radically two-toned hair. I expected there to be a slight difference in colour between virgin (henna only) new growth and the old, damaged and dyed length, but what I'm experiencing is embarrassingly obvious and not very nice looking. I don't wear my hair out anymore, even for special occasions, as I'm too ashamed of the way it looks.

My natural hair colour is a medium ashy brown. From what I can see, my hair is still light enough for the henna to work, and to stain my hair red. I don't have very dark hair at all.

However, henna does not seem to work on my roots, as you can see from the pictures.

I have been trying to lighten the roots with honey/cinnamon/lemon juice/EVOO treatments, and I added cinnamon to my diluted shampoo mix that only goes on my roots. I've seen very little change, however.

If I could pick any colour to have, it would be Hypnotica's, or Rose Red's. They both have gorgeous red hair, I'd love either of their shades.

I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can achieve a nicer, more uniform shade of red. I know it will never be the blazing colour I had with synthetic dyes, but I need a solution, because what's the point in taking good care of my hair and using herbal dyes if I am too embarrassed to wear it out on special occasions?

The only thing I can think of is that the natural oils of my hair have prevented dye uptake...I henna with clean hair, but perhaps I need to wash with a super-sulphate shampoo before hand, and completely strip it. Could that alone be causing this colour-anomaly?

Here are some pictures - I have been too embarrassed to post these before. My hair is a little oily in some of these pics, which makes it look worse. Sorry :(

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/trippywallpaper/DSCN2090.jpgHere's a full length shot. The upshot of all this is that I'm at "Can I call this waist-length", which is pretty exciting, given that pre-LHC I thought I might be terminal before BSL. :D

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/trippywallpaper/DSCN2109.jpgEek! Oily!

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/trippywallpaper/DSCN2088.jpgHere you can see the difference between the top part and the bottom half of my hair. The top part isn't even a nice colour - not one I'd like to grow out.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/trippywallpaper/DSCN2087.jpg

I'm sorry if I sound a bit whiny, in truth my hair has made fantastic progress, and I'm really enjoying watching it grow. This is all thanks to this wonderful community :flowers:

I await any suggestions you might have - I'm open to any and all possibilities (except cut it all off, of course ;) )

Thanks in advance!

-- Natalie

just two thoughts. Have you tried to clarify before you henna? How long do you let the henna sit? I had the same problem shortly after I switched to henna, I think that I didn't notice that my hair was darker than the bleached ends and thus I didn't always see the darker red I was getting. I have also hennaed my ponytail a cuple of times to darken it and match my roots.
I don't know but it is kind off odd, I thought that at your length the colours would be blended. Have you considered highlights to make the transitioning easier? (I know I know, bleach and damaging stuff, but it works for some henna heads)
I'm sorry I couldn't help more:(
ETA, try to take similair pictures with clean hair, sometimes oily roots seem to absorb the colour.

I have a somewhat similar problem, but to a lesser degree. My virgin hennaed hair is brighter and redder than yours, but there is still a greater contrast between it and my chemically lightened, then hennaed length, than I would like. I am also happier with the color of my virgin hennaed hair (just not the contrast) than you are, but I would like it brighter and more coppery.

I have the biggest problem with the first 1/4 inch of my roots ...immediately after hennaing they look pretty good, but once they oxidize they're barely red at all. And they fade further from that point. By the time they get hennaed twice they're pretty red and no longer fade, but then of course I still have the same problem with the next 1/4 inch that's sprouted meanwhile.

I read somewhere that the new growth is a common problem with henna, for the reason that the hair is SO virgin that the cuticle is too undamaged to take a good stain. That's part of the reason that chemical dyes contain ammonia and peroxide....to make the cuticle more receptive to the dyes. Reading about baking soda and hair recently, I learned that because of its alkalinity it temporarily raises the cuticle. So the next time I henna (about a wk.) I'm going to do a baking soda in water rinse of my roots only in addition to the clarifying shampoo I already use...I'll post back about the results.

If that doesn't help I might resort to using 20 vol. peroxide developer (not a full bleaching, the developer is just part of the mix you bleach with [and 40 vol. in that case])on my roots to rough them up a bit before hennaing. That would kill 2 birds with 1 stone, as the slight lightening would brighten my henna results. Which leads to my next issue...

While using cassia in my mix definitely helps me avoid burgundy (I hennaed w/out it once because of my 1/4 inch issue, and immediately developed burgundy tones...it didn't do any better on the new growth either...then the next time I did a 50/50 mix I fell asleep for 6 hrs. with it on, which worsened the burgundy situation) I wish it had stronger golden tones. So the next time I'm still going to use cassia, but I'm going to use just as much calendula flower powder, which is supposed to impart an orange-yellow tone. I already have some that's ground very fine for facial masks.

But back to you, Natalie; did you ever try cassia? I think it would definitely make a difference. People often have the misconception that more henna means more red, but it really doesn't on brown hair. It means darker, more burgundy, and also browner than diluted henna. I really noticed that when I used straight henna I lost fire in my hair (as opposed to henna/cassia), and got a cooler, less bright, cherry-brown tone. And the longer you leave henna on, or do full-heads, the more that happens.

If you can't find cassia and don't want to order on-line, maybe try powdered calendula or chammomile (or any goldening herb) to dilute and brighten your henna, and lessen the contrast with your length. Or look for blonde or neutral hennas; they'll be either cassia or cassia combined w/ blonding herbs. I really doubt that there's any need for concern about other additives in blonde or neutral. I really think that CCJ of Mehandi wildly exaggerates the prevalence of metallic salts in henna-based mixes, and has brain-washed others to do the same. When I was a teenager I hennaed for a couple of years, and used multiple brands sold in health food stores . Then I went back to boxed "permanent" chemical dyes out of laziness. There was no bad reaction, though of course I wasn't expecting one, Henna for Hair didn't exist yet. I think the hair salon horror stories about green hair are because of henna mixes containing indigo, which does turn green when lightened with peroxide. The colors of most if not all of those health food store henna mixes really are just henna (albeit the less choice crops and parts, with lower dye content and rinsing and application issues) mixed with other tinting herbs.

Can I just say that your hair looks beautiful!!!? It's SO hard to have any kind of objective view of how we appear to others.

But since you don't like it how it is....I wonder if you would have any luck with the lemon+conditioner+sun lightening method? Since you're trying to get your virgin hair to look brighter with the henna... I tried this recently---a half cup or so of my favorite conditioner, mixed with a few tablespoons of fresh lemon juice (pulp strained out), spread --evenly-- through my roots, then sat in the sun for an hour or so (with plenty of sunblock, of course). My hair hates acid, so it was dry for a few days after that, but it definitely lightened a little, enough so that the next henna application was pretty bright, too bright for me, but anyway...

Also, I second the suggestion to add cassia--which you should be able to get at any big health food store as Light Mountain Neutral Henna.

Good luck, and your hair really does look lovely in the pictures.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with uneven colour (as seen in my profile pic)! ;)

But if you really don't like it, I see only two other options:

1. Henna your full length, repeatedly, until your hair equalises in colour, resulting in dark red or even burgundy hair.

2. Bleach the roots (fully or just narrow/wide 'highlights') and henna over it.

I don't want either of these for myself, so what I'm doing instead is just hennaing my roots with a mixture of henna and cassia. Occasionally I add conditioner to the dregs in the bowl and do a gloss on the length. That way, I'm hoping that my roots will not get too dark and the overall colour will more or less equalise. Nightshade has great success with the henna & cassia method. Unfortunately, I don't! Actually, what seems to be happening is that my roots are getting darker, but not really very red. And I love red! :( So I will probably tweak my mix again. If I can be bothered... :shrug:

I can't help you with the henna, but can add something about your honey/cinnamon/lemon juice/EVOO treatments to try to lighten the roots. I think you haven't seen much change because of the lemon juice in the receipe - on the honey thread, the amazing ktani has done a lot of research and found that lemon juice will reduce the effect of the lightening. This is because honey, EVOO and cinnamon lighten by creating dilute peroxide, but lemon juice contains vitamin C, which neutralizes the peroxide and so prevents it lightening your hair. She has also found that a honey dilution of 1:4 produces most peroxide, and therefore lightening. You should have better results if you leave out the lemon juice and do a 1:4 dilution, you could also try adding cardamon, which is also thought to help lightening. Your length looks great, good luck with achieving a colour you like more :)

Nat242

The honey lightening recipe that you have been using has been working against itself.

The peroxide in the honey, cinnamon and EVOO would have oxidized the Vitamin C in the lemon juice and been depleted in doing so.

If you want to try the recipe again - I recommend using a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey to dilute it (that does not include the EVOO) and get the maximum honey peroxide value in only one hour on your hair, and leave out the lemon juice and any ingredient with a Vitamin C content.

ETA: Thank you firebird for the kind words. While I was writing this, you were posting. You are right on target with your information and understanding of the recipe. Not all of the recipe peroxide would necessarily have been lost - that would depend on the amount of lemon juice in the recipe but any lemon juice would have reduced the amount of peroxide present.

I just want to say that your hair is beautiful. I love multicolored hair, and go to a lot of effort to get my henna results to have that lighter/brighter-at-the-ends effect and lots of variation in color. I don't see a hard line across yours, just a gradual fade from one color to the next. I think it looks great and you shouldn't be afraid to wear it down!

Two toned longhairs unite!
I think your hair looks good, you have nothing to be embarrassed about! I'm right now growing out bleached over henna, and my roots are light/brown blonde. But I understand how you feel, I also prefer wearing my hair up now.

I also experienced the same problem as you when I used henna and I have the following suggestions:
Clarifying before the henna might help, but be careful not to over do it. Itchy scalp makes no one happy.
Do you have anything acidic in your henna? If no, try lemon juice, wine or yoghurt.
Do you mix your henna with warm water? If not, try it and put the henna in as soon as it is cool enough to put on your scalp.
Maybe the henna brand isn't the right one for you, try another.

This is what I can think of right now, HTH!

Nat242

The honey lightening recipe that you have been using has been working against itself.

The peroxide in the honey, cinnamon and EVOO would have oxidized the Vitamin C in the lemon juice and been depleted in doing so.

If you want to try the recipe again - I recommend using a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey to dilute it (that does not include the EVOO) and get the maximum honey peroxide value in only one hour on your hair, and leave out the lemon juice and any ingredient with a Vitamin C content.

ETA: Thank you firebird for the kind words. While I was writing this, you were posting. You are right on target with your information and understanding of the recipe. Not all of the recipe peroxide would necessarily have been lost - that would depend on the amount of lemon juice in the recipe but any lemon juice would have reduced the amount of peroxide present.


I forgot about this! I knew there was a reason why I did the honey/co lightening and the 50/50 lj/co separately, but couldn't remember quite why.

The lemon juice and conditioner does work, but it requires a full 40-50% lj. ETA- Heat as well as sun will accelerate the lightening of lemon, so if you don't want to sit in the sun you could put plastic wrap or a shower-cap on and heat it up w/ a blow-dryer.

Henna your full length, repeatedly, until your hair equalises in colour, resulting in dark red or even burgundy hair.

That's all I got, too. That's what I've been doing and it is blending in more and more.

My only suggestion is that (as jel suggested) you repeatedly re-henna the lengths until they are closer to your virgin hair, perhaps adding some degree of cassia to avoid burgundy.

I read somewhere that the new growth is a common problem with henna, for the reason that the hair is SO virgin that the cuticle is too undamaged to take a good stain.
That's what this definitely looks like to me.

From the pictures, it looks like the henna is simply not taking well on your roots, except, I think, on the hairs at your hairline (the 'outside'). It would make sense that those hairs are more roughed up than the rest of your roots, since they're exposed more to the elements.

It looks that way to me because the shine on your roots - actually the whole virgin part I guess, the first 5" or so? - is white. The shine on hennaed hair usually does not look white in sunlight pictures, it looks orange. Virgin hair does have a white-looking shine in sunlight though. ETA: I see some henna shine in your virgin hair, there is a hint of orange there but it's not much.

I always had a problem getting the henna to take on my roots. Just because they're not weathered at all so they don't take the dye as well. My hair would take the henna sooner than yours seems to do, though - for me only the first 1/2-1" would be resistant to the henna.

A good clarifying pre-henna wash on the roots might help, as may sectioning when you apply to the roots maybe, but, I don't know. It looks to me like your virgin hair is just really, really healthy hard keratin that simply doesn't take henna well.

For indigo, it's sometimes recommended to add salt to make it take better. The reasoning behind that, according to Catherine from H4H, is that salt 'roughs up the cuticle'. If that is true (and I have to agree with Velouria that you can't take Catherine's word as gospel), maybe adding salt might help to make henna take better?

Pretreating the roots with peroxide should definitely help. It's somewhat counterintuitive to damage your hair to make your henna take, but, yeah :wink:. It'll give you a more vibrant color, too.

Iris

just two thoughts. Have you tried to clarify before you henna? How long do you let the henna sit? I had the same problem shortly after I switched to henna, I think that I didn't notice that my hair was darker than the bleached ends and thus I didn't always see the darker red I was getting. I have also hennaed my ponytail a cuple of times to darken it and match my roots.
I don't know but it is kind off odd, I thought that at your length the colours would be blended. Have you considered highlights to make the transitioning easier? (I know I know, bleach and damaging stuff, but it works for some henna heads)
I'm sorry I couldn't help more:(
ETA, try to take similair pictures with clean hair, sometimes oily roots seem to absorb the colour.

Thanks, Isilme! I have considered highlights, but I'm a uni student, and simply don't have the money to go to a salon.

I have a somewhat similar problem, but to a lesser degree. My virgin hennaed hair is brighter and redder than yours, but there is still a greater contrast between it and my chemically lightened, then hennaed length, than I would like. I am also happier with the color of my virgin hennaed hair (just not the contrast) than you are, but I would like it brighter and more coppery.

I have the biggest problem with the first 1/4 inch of my roots ...immediately after hennaing they look pretty good, but once they oxidize they're barely red at all. And they fade further from that point. By the time they get hennaed twice they're pretty red and no longer fade, but then of course I still have the same problem with the next 1/4 inch that's sprouted meanwhile.

I read somewhere that the new growth is a common problem with henna, for the reason that the hair is SO virgin that the cuticle is too undamaged to take a good stain. That's part of the reason that chemical dyes contain ammonia and peroxide....to make the cuticle more receptive to the dyes. Reading about baking soda and hair recently, I learned that because of its alkalinity it temporarily raises the cuticle. So the next time I henna (about a wk.) I'm going to do a baking soda in water rinse of my roots only in addition to the clarifying shampoo I already use...I'll post back about the results.

If that doesn't help I might resort to using 20 vol. peroxide developer (not a full bleaching, the developer is just part of the mix you bleach with [and 40 vol. in that case])on my roots to rough them up a bit before hennaing. That would kill 2 birds with 1 stone, as the slight lightening would brighten my henna results. Which leads to my next issue...

While using cassia in my mix definitely helps me avoid burgundy (I hennaed w/out it once because of my 1/4 inch issue, and immediately developed burgundy tones...it didn't do any better on the new growth either...then the next time I did a 50/50 mix I fell asleep for 6 hrs. with it on, which worsened the burgundy situation) I wish it had stronger golden tones. So the next time I'm still going to use cassia, but I'm going to use just as much calendula flower powder, which is supposed to impart an orange-yellow tone. I already have some that's ground very fine for facial masks.

But back to you, Natalie; did you ever try cassia? I think it would definitely make a difference. People often have the misconception that more henna means more red, but it really doesn't on brown hair. It means darker, more burgundy, and also browner than diluted henna. I really noticed that when I used straight henna I lost fire in my hair (as opposed to henna/cassia), and got a cooler, less bright, cherry-brown tone. And the longer you leave henna on, or do full-heads, the more that happens.

If you can't find cassia and don't want to order on-line, maybe try powdered calendula or chammomile (or any goldening herb) to dilute and brighten your henna, and lessen the contrast with your length. Or look for blonde or neutral hennas; they'll be either cassia or cassia combined w/ blonding herbs. I really doubt that there's any need for concern about other additives in blonde or neutral. I really think that CCJ of Mehandi wildly exaggerates the prevalence of metallic salts in henna-based mixes, and has brain-washed others to do the same. When I was a teenager I hennaed for a couple of years, and used multiple brands sold in health food stores . Then I went back to boxed "permanent" chemical dyes out of laziness. There was no bad reaction, though of course I wasn't expecting one, Henna for Hair didn't exist yet. I think the hair salon horror stories about green hair are because of henna mixes containing indigo, which does turn green when lightened with peroxide. The colors of most if not all of those health food store henna mixes really are just henna (albeit the less choice crops and parts, with lower dye content and rinsing and application issues) mixed with other tinting herbs.

Velouria, WOW! Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me. I've considered cassia, but I haven't been able to find it. That said, I've seen some blonde henna around, I guess that's probably cassia, right?:D

The baking soda is a great idea - not only will it seriously clarify my hair before henna'ing and strip all the oils away, but if it roughs up the cuticle a little I might see better results.

I've thought about peroxide too, but I'm a little scared of it. I've never used it before, I'd be afraid of causing too much damaging and losing my recently-gained length. It is an option, though, and thank you for suggesting it.

Can I just say that your hair looks beautiful!!!? It's SO hard to have any kind of objective view of how we appear to others.

But since you don't like it how it is....I wonder if you would have any luck with the lemon+conditioner+sun lightening method? Since you're trying to get your virgin hair to look brighter with the henna... I tried this recently---a half cup or so of my favorite conditioner, mixed with a few tablespoons of fresh lemon juice (pulp strained out), spread --evenly-- through my roots, then sat in the sun for an hour or so (with plenty of sunblock, of course). My hair hates acid, so it was dry for a few days after that, but it definitely lightened a little, enough so that the next henna application was pretty bright, too bright for me, but anyway...

Also, I second the suggestion to add cassia--which you should be able to get at any big health food store as Light Mountain Neutral Henna.

Good luck, and your hair really does look lovely in the pictures.

Thank you so much for the compliments, Treecrown, it's very nice to hear :cheese: I might have to try lemon juice in the sun - I've avoided it in the past simply because (as you can see from my photos) I'm ultra-fair and sitting out in the sun for an hour or two at this time of year (it's autumn in the sub-tropics) is not something I would normally do. If I cover up though, it's worth a shot! Thanks.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with uneven colour (as seen in my profile pic)! ;)

But if you really don't like it, I see only two other options:

1. Henna your full length, repeatedly, until your hair equalises in colour, resulting in dark red or even burgundy hair.

2. Bleach the roots (fully or just narrow/wide 'highlights') and henna over it.

I don't want either of these for myself, so what I'm doing instead is just hennaing my roots with a mixture of henna and cassia. Occasionally I add conditioner to the dregs in the bowl and do a gloss on the length. That way, I'm hoping that my roots will not get too dark and the overall colour will more or less equalise. Nightshade has great success with the henna & cassia method. Unfortunately, I don't! Actually, what seems to be happening is that my roots are getting darker, but not really very red. And I love red! :( So I will probably tweak my mix again. If I can be bothered... :shrug:

Jel, the difference between my two-tone hair and yours is the colour you're sporting on your new growth is really pretty! If the colours in my hair were as lovely as yours, I'd have no problems at all ;) .

I've considered letting bright red go, and slipping into a darker, burgundy colour - after all, it looks gorgeous on Rose_Red, I'd be thrilled to have her gorgeous colour. I'd like to exhaust other avenues first, though, as once I go down that path, there's no going back!

I can't help you with the henna, but can add something about your honey/cinnamon/lemon juice/EVOO treatments to try to lighten the roots. I think you haven't seen much change because of the lemon juice in the receipe - on the honey thread, the amazing ktani has done a lot of research and found that lemon juice will reduce the effect of the lightening. This is because honey, EVOO and cinnamon lighten by creating dilute peroxide, but lemon juice contains vitamin C, which neutralizes the peroxide and so prevents it lightening your hair. She has also found that a honey dilution of 1:4 produces most peroxide, and therefore lightening. You should have better results if you leave out the lemon juice and do a 1:4 dilution, you could also try adding cardamon, which is also thought to help lightening. Your length looks great, good luck with achieving a colour you like more :)

Firebird - thank you so much! It's a bit of a 'duh' moment for me, but I'm so grateful you piped up! I'll try adding some cardamon too.

Message too long, continued next post.

Nat242

The honey lightening recipe that you have been using has been working against itself.

The peroxide in the honey, cinnamon and EVOO would have oxidized the Vitamin C in the lemon juice and been depleted in doing so.

If you want to try the recipe again - I recommend using a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey to dilute it (that does not include the EVOO) and get the maximum honey peroxide value in only one hour on your hair, and leave out the lemon juice and any ingredient with a Vitamin C content.

ETA: Thank you firebird for the kind words. While I was writing this, you were posting. You are right on target with your information and understanding of the recipe. Not all of the recipe peroxide would necessarily have been lost - that would depend on the amount of lemon juice in the recipe but any lemon juice would have reduced the amount of peroxide present.

Thanks, Ktani! I feel a bit silly - so many hours wearing a goop of honey, EVOO, lemon juice and cinnamon on my head, to no effect. Oh well! I'll try again Thank you so much. What do you suggest I dilute the honey with? Conditioner? I'll pop over to the honey thread and snoop around.

I just want to say that your hair is beautiful. I love multicolored hair, and go to a lot of effort to get my henna results to have that lighter/brighter-at-the-ends effect and lots of variation in color. I don't see a hard line across yours, just a gradual fade from one color to the next. I think it looks great and you shouldn't be afraid to wear it down!

Thank you so much Multi-colour hair is fine by me, too, I just don't much like the colour coming out! Once it's a colour I like, I'll be a lot more confident wearing it down. Thanks again.

Two toned longhairs unite!
I think your hair looks good, you have nothing to be embarrassed about! I'm right now growing out bleached over henna, and my roots are light/brown blonde. But I understand how you feel, I also prefer wearing my hair up now.

I also experienced the same problem as you when I used henna and I have the following suggestions:
Clarifying before the henna might help, but be careful not to over do it. Itchy scalp makes no one happy.
Do you have anything acidic in your henna? If no, try lemon juice, wine or yoghurt.
Do you mix your henna with warm water? If not, try it and put the henna in as soon as it is cool enough to put on your scalp.
Maybe the henna brand isn't the right one for you, try another.

This is what I can think of right now, HTH!

Thanks, Granitbaby! I will definitely clarify next time, using bicarb. Thanks for the warning, I'll be careful, and I'll use the dilution of bicarb I've used to clarify in the past - my scalp was fine with that. I haven't put anything acidic in my henna - I though acids inhibit dye release or dye uptake or something?

I mix henna with warm water, and leave it to sit in a warm place until it stains my skin orange when I test it. With past brands of henna, this has only taken an hour or two, with this new brand I'm trying it takes almost 12 hours. I've tried several different varieties of henna, all leaving me with this two-tone effect. Thank you so much

I forgot about this! I knew there was a reason why I did the honey/co lightening and the 50/50 lj/co separately, but couldn't remember quite why.

The lemon juice and conditioner does work, but it requires a full 40-50% lj. ETA- Heat as well as sun will accelerate the lightening of lemon, so if you don't want to sit in the sun you could put plastic wrap or a shower-cap on and heat it up w/ a blow-dryer.

Hey, thanks for stopping by again! I don't have honey in the cupboard today, so I'll try the lemon juice on it's own. I'll make sure I apply heat in some fashion, too...it's pretty warm here today as well.

My only suggestion is that (as jel suggested) you repeatedly re-henna the lengths until they are closer to your virgin hair, perhaps adding some degree of cassia to avoid burgundy.

Thanks, Celebrian. I'm going to test out a few things suggested here, but I may just have to go substantially darker to match things up, which would still be okay. Thanks!

That's what this definitely looks like to me.

From the pictures, it looks like the henna is simply not taking well on your roots, except, I think, on the hairs at your hairline (the 'outside'). It would make sense that those hairs are more roughed up than the rest of your roots, since they're exposed more to the elements.

It looks that way to me because the shine on your roots - actually the whole virgin part I guess, the first 5" or so? - is white. The shine on hennaed hair usually does not look white in sunlight pictures, it looks orange. Virgin hair does have a white-looking shine in sunlight though. ETA: I see some henna shine in your virgin hair, there is a hint of orange there but it's not much.

I always had a problem getting the henna to take on my roots. Just because they're not weathered at all so they don't take the dye as well. My hair would take the henna sooner than yours seems to do, though - for me only the first 1/2-1" would be resistant to the henna.

A good clarifying pre-henna wash on the roots might help, as may sectioning when you apply to the roots maybe, but, I don't know. It looks to me like your virgin hair is just really, really healthy hard keratin that simply doesn't take henna well.

For indigo, it's sometimes recommended to add salt to make it take better. The reasoning behind that, according to Catherine from H4H, is that salt 'roughs up the cuticle'. If that is true (and I have to agree with Velouria that you can't take Catherine's word as gospel), maybe adding salt might help to make henna take better?

Pretreating the roots with peroxide should definitely help. It's somewhat counterintuitive to damage your hair to make your henna take, but, yeah . It'll give you a more vibrant color, too.

Iris

Iris, thank you so much! You're right - the hairs along my hairline have that henna-orange, but the rest of my new growth doesn't. I'd wondered why - now I know! It's a bit ironic, isn't it, that new, healthy hair it too hardy for henna and may actually require a little damage for the colour to work

I will do a strong clarifying shampoo before the next henna - and I have been sectioning my hair to get at my roots. I braid my hair into lots of little braids, then henna the roots, then release each braid individually and paint it.

I might try a little salt, thanks for the suggestion. Just a little can't hurt too much - I always need to baby my hair a little after henna-ing anyway.

The peroxide suggestion is an interesting one - but as I've mentioned above, I haven't used it before and I'm afraid of causing damage that will mean I'll lose all my lovely new length. It is something to consider, however, though I'll exhaust other avenues first, and I'll need to do a lot more research first.

Thank you so much for all your responses, everyone, I'm thrilled! I've got a few new things to try out, and hopefully something will work.

I'll keep you posted.

-- Natalie

Might I also just say, thank goodness for the multi-quote function! :cheese:

-- Natalie

You're welcome :) The honey thread has loads of great info about lightening.

I haven't read through the results....but in all seriousness your roots will alwasy be darker. Once my hair reaches BSL length my ends are a nice "brown" colour, judging by my roots...people tend to say my hair is "black ". Try growing it out. Henna the ends repetitively to get the ends darker. even if you progressively get the bit near the virgin roots to look darker so it blends more, put in some henndigo/ indigo (on henna = black) low lights to tone down the transistion perhaps?
I like your hair...i don't know why you are so ashamed of it. It really doesn't look bad!
In fact.....it may suprise you, but i am jealous of your hair. It looks so thicka nd healthy and nice compared to mine. If i had your hair i would not be ashamed one bit!

To make henna take more, leave it longer, don't add so some acid- acid makes it stain darker. And also maybe do a bicarb clarifying wash before hand? Leave henna on as long as you can, perhaps your hair isn't very porous- which is a good thing!

The peroxide suggestion is an interesting one - but as I've mentioned above, I haven't used it before and I'm afraid of causing damage that will mean I'll lose all my lovely new length.
Yeah, I'd keep the peroxide suggestion for last. The logical order to try things out would be in order of potential for damage: sulphate wash first, then pre-henna baking soda, then salt, peroxide last.

Are you happy with the color you get on your virgin hair where it does take, around the hairline? Or would you want to have a color more firey than that? If the latter, you may end up doing peroxide anyway.

My experience with peroxide has been fairly positive, but it is damaging of course and the problem is that the damage happens quite suddenly and unpredictably, you don't see it coming.

I've used peroxide in two ways:

1. I used it for years to mimic sun highlights in my naturally dark blonde hair. I'd just use 3% (=10 vol) household peroxide, saturate some streaks with it and blowdry them for 5-10 minutes - this would bleach the strands to white (my virgin hair lightens very easily). I never noticed this being damaging. I do think that my natural pigment is unusually flimsy and lightens more easily than most people's hair does. Hair with sturdier natural pigment would need more peroxide and hence get more damage.

2. I used plain peroxide (NO BLEACH) to lighten my hennaed length. That was way more difficult than getting my natural pigment to lighten. It took about 48 hours peroxide soaking to get to a color that was light enough yellow for me to tone over with blue/purple pigment to get to a shade resembling my natural dark blonde/light brown. I did get serious damage on some of the ends, they turned to chewing gum and I had to cut them off. This damage happened very suddenly, my hair was fine one treatment and the next it suddenly was beyond salvation. Shermie Girl did the same and had to chop pretty much all her length off because it turned to chewing gum. So peroxide is not something to venture into lightly - it does have potential for disaster.

Iris

Velouria, WOW! Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me. I've considered cassia, but I haven't been able to find it. That said, I've seen some blonde henna around, I guess that's probably cassia, right?:D

The baking soda is a great idea - not only will it seriously clarify my hair before henna'ing and strip all the oils away, but if it roughs up the cuticle a little I might see better results.

I've thought about peroxide too, but I'm a little scared of it. I've never used it before, I'd be afraid of causing too much damaging and losing my recently-gained length. It is an option, though, and thank you for suggesting it.



No problem, as I'm in a similar boat I've given these matters considerable thought. And people IRL certainly don't want to listen to my musings about it :)

I'm only considering peroxide as a last resort also; I hope neither of us will be driven to using it. That said, the way I intend to do it (if I have to) would just be one 1/2 hr. application of low volume peroxide (10-20 vol., or 3-6%, haven't decided which strength I should go)of my virgin hennaed growth, followed by root-touch-ups, being careful not to overlap on previously peroxided areas. I think that would be enough to roughen the cuticle a bit, and to lighten slightly....hopefully without causing damage that the subsequent hennaing wouldn't go a ways toward repairing. This should be a lot less damaging than doing a real bleaching, or even one application of a chemical dye (the kind where you have one bottle of developer [which is a peroxide solution] that you mix with a bottle of colorant [which has ammonia or some other solvent to react w/ the peroxide, as well as the dyes]), as a dye usually has other damaging ingredients besides peroxide, and always needs to be "refreshed" in the length sooner or later....and with reds like you and I were using, needed the full-head "refreshed" every time.

[quote=Nat242;83869

I mix henna with warm water, and leave it to sit in a warm place until it stains my skin orange when I test it. With past brands of henna, this has only taken an hour or two, with this new brand I'm trying it takes almost 12 hours. I've tried several different varieties of henna, all leaving me with this two-tone effect. Thank you so much.

-- Natalie[/quote]


I forgot to ask about this in my last post....is the brand you most recently used Afshan? I ask because I remember you asking about the Afshan that you bought in a previous thread. If so, that's odd that the release takes so long. I use Afshan and it starts staining orange almost immediately. But what you bought was labeled differently than mine, for hair only, or something? Afshan is Pakistani, like Jamila, which I've read takes a long time to dye-release, though Jamila also released right away when I used it. Do you use tap water? If so, you might want to try distilled or filtered with the Afshan and see if that helps.

Oh, and about adding acid to the mix...I'm not sure what to think about that. Lemon juice has definitely been shown to produce a lighter stain, but I'm not sure that that means it actually inhibits lawsone. Since lemon is a lightening agent, it seems to me the stain with it might be just as *much stain*, but a stain of a lighter color. I've never used it, but I may try it at some point, after I get my 1st 1/4 inch issue straightened out..don't want to risk inhibiting stain yet.

I don't think it could hurt to try adding a milder acid other than lj to your mix. I don't think acids in other forms were shown to inhibit stain. I now use some black tea (mildly acidic) in my herbal mix liquid for hennaing, and it seems to stain better than when I used no added acid. With tea though, that may not even be a matter of acidity. Tea leaves are astringent and tannin-rich, and I know tannins are used to help dyes take. Of course, henna already contains tannins and acid, but maybe adding more can help. Anyway, I think you might do well to try using tea (true tea) as your mix liquid.

I'm in the same situation. I'm growing out my virgin hair, so I'll have three tone hair soon.
Good luck with your hair! (I agree with the others that it is already beautiful. :))

Herm. What about shampooing your roots with baby shampoo before you henna? Since it's more alkaline, it may get your hair to open up and give the henna more to grab onto?

Can't hurt to try, anyway, and it's easier on the hair than peroxide. Baking soda was another really good suggestion. Just be sure to try ONE thing at at time. :)

Also, I may have missed it in the thread, but what sort of henna are you using? I use stuff from Henna Sooq, and really, you may just need a BAQ batch with a high dye content. Also, if you want more fire, cut it with cassia, chamomile, conditioner, something. My hair is much brighter now with a 65% cassia 35% henna mix than it ever was with straight henna. Downside is that my roots fade until they're redone, but whatever. At least it isn't purple-looking anymore.

There's a great pic in my album of my hair in the sun that illustrates this well (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=237&pictureid=4832), if you can't see it, just tag me with a friend request :)

I'm using Afshan henna, though I've used at least two other brands with the same result. I shopped around for cassia the other day, sadly all I could find was a "neutral henna" paste, with "henna extract" and a bunch of other things, which I didn't think would work. I'll keep looking for cassia, but I can't afford to buy it (or my henna) online...with shipping to Australia it gets way to expensive for me at the moment (really can't wait to graduate).

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I make my henna with strong chamomile tea. I've seen that picture of yours before, Nightshade -- the thing is, I really like the colour of your length! Your new colour is lovely too, but I don't think it would be as nice on me. Cooler reds are probably better for my skin tone than the reddish-gold you're sporting. I'm not sure :shrug:

Baby shampoo is a great suggestion too. Hmm, what to try first? Baby shampoo or baking soda? It will be a couple of weeks before I have time to try. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thanks so much!

-- Natalie

Herm. What about shampooing your roots with baby shampoo before you henna? Since it's more alkaline, it may get your hair to open up and give the henna more to grab onto?

Can't hurt to try, anyway, and it's easier on the hair than peroxide. Baking soda was another really good suggestion. Just be sure to try ONE thing at at time. :)

Also, I may have missed it in the thread, but what sort of henna are you using? I use stuff from Henna Sooq, and really, you may just need a BAQ batch with a high dye content. Also, if you want more fire, cut it with cassia, chamomile, conditioner, something. My hair is much brighter now with a 65% cassia 35% henna mix than it ever was with straight henna. Downside is that my roots fade until they're redone, but whatever. At least it isn't purple-looking anymore.

There's a great pic in my album of my hair in the sun that illustrates this well (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=237&pictureid=4832), if you can't see it, just tag me with a friend request :)

Nightshade - your hair is totally amazing and I am learning so much. I just got my order from Henna Sooq and will hennaing this weekend.

I'm using Afshan henna, though I've used at least two other brands with the same result. I shopped around for cassia the other day, sadly all I could find was a "neutral henna" paste, with "henna extract" and a bunch of other things, which I didn't think would work. I'll keep looking for cassia, but I can't afford to buy it (or my henna) online...with shipping to Australia it gets way to expensive for me at the moment (really can't wait to graduate).

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I make my henna with strong chamomile tea. I've seen that picture of yours before, Nightshade -- the thing is, I really like the colour of your length! Your new colour is lovely too, but I don't think it would be as nice on me. Cooler reds are probably better for my skin tone than the reddish-gold you're sporting. I'm not sure :shrug:

Baby shampoo is a great suggestion too. Hmm, what to try first? Baby shampoo or baking soda? It will be a couple of weeks before I have time to try. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thanks so much!

-- Natalie

Yeah, that "neutral henna" paste doesn't sound like something to use. Actually, if you'd like a cooler red cassia probably isn't a good idea at all. With your root coverage problem and a cooler red goal you may as well continue w/ straight henna. I guess I was confusing my issues with yours..I also have coverage issues with my newest roots, but I don't like the cooler red I get on my natural hair w/ overlapping applications of henna. I'm going to try the braiding/sectioning technique w/ my next root application to try to avoid any more overlap. The non-chemically dyed portion of my hair does have a purplish cast in certain lights (not most, thankfully)
even though I use cassia.
If acid is indeed helpful for helping henna take better (and it may not be), chamomile won't do any good in that department (not knocking it, I do use it, but not as an acid), it's not acidic. I don't know how it got started here and on H4H that it is. True tea (black tea, camellia sinsenis) is, as is rosehip tea and some other herbal teas. Since you've never hennaed w/ an added acid, you may want to try it and see if it helps.

Nightshade - your hair is totally amazing and I am learning so much. I just got my order from Henna Sooq and will hennaing this weekend.


Awww, thank you! I hope your henna turns out fantastic!


Sorry, I should have mentioned that I make my henna with strong chamomile tea. I've seen that picture of yours before, Nightshade -- the thing is, I really like the colour of your length! Your new colour is lovely too, but I don't think it would be as nice on me. Cooler reds are probably better for my skin tone than the reddish-gold you're sporting. I'm not sure :shrug:

Baby shampoo is a great suggestion too. Hmm, what to try first? Baby shampoo or baking soda? It will be a couple of weeks before I have time to try. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thanks so much!

-- Natalie

The chamomile won't change the color, but it's a great conditioner :) FOr a cooler red, just stick with 100% henna and hot chamomile tea, then let it cool before you put it on your head.

ETA; I'd go baby shampoo first, as it's a bit gentler

About the cooler red: you can get a cooler red with henna, BUT, it will also be darker. The bottom line is: lots of lawsone = cool-toned red, dark; less lawsone = warmer-toned red, lighter.

You can't get a light cool-toned red with henna. It's one or the other, unfortunately.

Iris

Call me crazy but I don't think you should be embarrassed and I love the two tone look on you alot!!!!!!

I've been looking at this thread and thinking about your hair situation for several days now - and bearing in mind that you are prepared to be a cooler red, provided that includes further darkening, I really think that going on henna'ing with something like Yemen (cooler red usually) will darken your ends AND my observation has also been that darker hair can appear to lighten/brighten after a number of henna's anyway. Something to do with that constant laying down of redness over darkness I suppose.

What I'm trying to say is that I think repeated henna alone will get you to a fairly uniform dark auburn or whatever if you keep going i.e. the ends will darken, the 'virgin' hair will become enriched. Yep, I do think so...

Just my 2 cents...