PDA

View Full Version : Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

ktani
March 8th, 2008, 11:05 AM
Current details on honey lightening, a safe, alternative method to conventional peroxide/bleach, that can lighten any hair colour; virgin, colour-treated, hennaed and henndigoed hair. This is a very long thread. You can simply read this one post to be up to date.

START HERE - It is not necessary to read all of the following links. The first few contain the basics. The rest deal with specifics. "Frequently asked about topics" may be very helpful. See also the Innovations link in "Methods and Details" for ideas.

Honey lightening basics (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964)

The Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

The new dilution measurements (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=307685&postcount=2442)

A one post summary of the new honey lightening recommendations,
with explanations and links. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)

A breakdown of the above link (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628)

__________________________________________________ _____________
Methods and Details

How often honey lightening can be done (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323)

Choosing a honey and honey lightening boosters (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370)

Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575)

The colours of honey (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=534599&postcount=3584)

Notes on extra virgin olive oil and cardamom essential oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533046&postcount=3566)

Cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382)

Coumarin information in more detail (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=403799&postcount=3110)

Where to buy distilled water in different countries (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369)

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=324104&postcount=2583)

Suggestions for doing roots only with honey lightening (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371)

Recent honey lightening recipe and method Innovations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712)

Tap water, minerals and pH (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=534131&postcount=3574)

pH and honey lightening (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296)

__________________________________________________ _____________
Frequently asked about topics

When to pretreat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=526598&postcount=3521)

Diluting honey with conventional peroxide (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=644664&postcount=3892)

Honey lightening and "extras" (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=280629&postcount=2277)

Honey lightening and red tones (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291213&postcount=2340)

Honey lightening and cassia (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332)

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291820&postcount=2342)

Honey lightening on hennaed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339)

Honey lightening on henndigoed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291759&postcount=2341)

__________________________________________________ _____________
Miscellaneous

Honey as a leave-in - no lightening - it is a styling aid (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1693197&postcount=4790)

Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=392235&postcount=3063)

Vegan lightening recipes (no honey) (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=289520&postcount=2334)

4 things reported to discolour hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=294952&postcount=2364)

Differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299163&postcount=2379)

Honey and coughs and an all natural vegan (no honey) cold remedy, plus
information on coumarins and cassia cinnamon (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380)

__________________________________________________ _____________
Pictures

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906)

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907)

Pictures of honey lightening on blonde hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654105&postcount=3917)

Pictures of honey lightening on medium shades of hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654111&postcount=3918)

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed and henndigoed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654115&postcount=3919)

Pictures of honey lightening on dark, dyed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457007&postcount=3341)

______________________
http://ktanihairsense.blogspot.com/

ktani
March 8th, 2008, 03:38 PM
I will be happy to help with any questions continuing from here.

ktani
March 9th, 2008, 07:35 AM
frannyg

If you are concerned about how a honey lightening treatment might affect your hair colour - do a strand test first - it is no guarantee but it is better than not doing one, IMO.

A lot depends on the recipe, method and the honey but reddish tones on natural or colour-treated hair were not reported to be a problem in either Honey thread.

Honey treatments were actually reported to reduce brassiness for goldilocks, whose blonde hair is colour-treated - brassiness is a reddish tone. She successfully reduced brassiness from the wrong colour more than once.

Liv
March 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Hi.

I've tried this recipe:
Hair with Multiple Layers of Henna
These recipes have been slightly altered to remove additions that proved irrelevant to the recipes working.
1. The Recipe: 1 cup tomato (pasta) sauce, 1/2 cup honey, 1/2 cup extra virgin olive oil (EVOO)
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a plastic bag or wrap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and use a mild vinegar rinse to follow.
In this recipe, honey, tomato, and extra virgin olive oil all contain peroxide This was the first recipe to significantly lighten multiple layers of henna.

I've done the treatment 3 times (about once a week) on my hennaed/indigoed/chemiceal treated (dyed and bleached) hair now, and I'm really happy with the results. I am growing out my natural colour, and have tried several things the last 6 months to get rid of the henna/indigo colour. Nothing works as far as to totally remove the colour, the bleach made my hair multicoloured so I had to recolour my hair. And cut a lot of it off!

But, this treatment has lightend the colour a lot, the red/orange colour is not glowing like it used to and the indigo is slowly starting to let go.
I am going to continue to use this treatment (or one of the others) on a weekly basis, will report back later.:)

ktani
March 10th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Liv

Thank you for posting your results.

I am so glad that you are so pleased.

The 2 best recipes IMO for hennaed hair are the one you tried and the 50:50 honey coconut cream recipe.

Viviane had great results with the coconut cream one on her henna and indigo but she got great initial results with the tomato pasta sauce recipe - in fact she is the one who created it.

Viviane is very innovative.

ktani
March 10th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Liv

How did the treatment leave your hair condition wise?

Liv
March 11th, 2008, 04:10 AM
I would have never tried tomato pasta sauce my self, or even think of it at all. Vivian, you are my hero.:D And, of course, you too, ktani for making this thread. :D I would really like to shake hands with you both one day.

The stuff does smell a bit, so I only leave it on my head for an hour or so. I wet my hair down before applying the stuff to my hair, and the first time I washed it first. Next time I will try to wash my hair with an chelating shampoo first to see if that speeds up the process.

Conditionwise, it made my hair great. :) In fact I have included EVOO in my daily routine now, it makes my hair feel and look like I use cones (but in a good way).

ktani
March 11th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Liv

Great news about the condition of your hair - and thank you. I hope some day to meet you too.

People have used crushed tomatoes and tomato paste but they can tend to stain the hair more red - there were less problems and no red stain reported with pasta sauce.

You could if you want to, alternate the tomato sauce recipe with the coconut cream version but since you are having success with the tomato version and the EVOO is working out so well, there is no need. An hour at a time is the recommended minimum time so you are ok with that.

EVOO, of all of the oils I researched, has the highest peroxide value but has not been reported to lighten hair much on its own.

However, as part of your routine now, it could help somewhat on its own.

EVOO has been reported to be an excellent conditioning oil.

Coconut oil has a peroxide value too, but less than EVOO.

ktani
March 11th, 2008, 07:43 AM
In terms of personal credits, this is the section from the Honey Article. I bolded the member's names here.

"A special note of thanks: to Maluhia, for the first honey lightening recipe for 1 hour with vinegar rinse; Viviane, for creating the first honey, tomato lightening recipe; Joliebaby, for altering the first honey, tomato lightening recipe; iris, for the first honey, amla, cassia, hibiscus lightening recipe; and everyone who gave their feedback, pictures and time."

FrannyG
March 11th, 2008, 09:07 AM
frannyg

If you are concerned about how a honey lightening treatment might affect your hair colour - do a strand test first - it is no guarantee but it is better than not doing one, IMO.

A lot depends on the recipe, method and the honey but reddish tones on natural or colour-treated hair were not reported to be a problem in either Honey thread.

Honey treatments were actually reported to reduce brassiness for goldilocks, whose blonde hair is colour-treated - brassiness is a reddish tone. She successfully reduced brassiness from the wrong colour more than once.

Thank you ktani! I did a strand test and was happy with it. Right now I'm soaking in a conditioner/honey mix with a hint of olive oil. I will let you know what the results are.

ktani
March 11th, 2008, 09:11 AM
frannyg

I look forward to reading your results.

Liv
March 11th, 2008, 11:30 AM
[quote=ktani;7475]Liv

People have used crushed tomatoes and tomato paste but they can tend to stain the hair more red - there were less problems and no red stain reported with pasta sauce.
[quote]

I've been using tomato paste (I think, it's called tomatopurè in Norway and is made of tomatoes and salt), it stained my greys/whites a bit yellow but only temporarely. I will try the pasta sauce next time, to see if there is any difference.

ktani
March 11th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Liv

From my research on tomato paste in Europe, there are variations - there are double and triple strength versions.
They can be referred to as tomato puree from what I have read.

Here in North America, tomato paste and and tomato puree are 2 different products as far as I know. I think it has to do with water content or concentration.

If you are having success with the tomato paste or puree that you are using with no downside, by all means continue using it.

Pasta sauce is more diluted.

A stronger tomato paste could be problematic - I cannot say for sure.

ktani
March 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Liv

Here is one explanation of the differences between tomato paste, puree and sauce.
http://www.ochef.com/559.htm

and here is another - you have to scroll down a bit
http://www.sonic.net/~alden/CondimntEur.html

and then there is tomato concentrate
http://www.fft.com/fftt/servlet/fftt/template/preconfig,PreReport.vm/pcref/D-NLD-12.42/lid/1;jsessionid=D622663785C4F5651EE94B456A38D947

Liv
March 12th, 2008, 04:47 AM
Thank's ktani, I'll check out the links.
I know that the puree in Norway is way stronger then pasta sauce, we always use a lot of water to dilute it when we cook.

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 06:22 AM
Liv

You need enough moisture in the honey lightening treatment to dilute the honey but from your results it sounds like you have that.

I always recommend to add water if necessary but you have had no problems.

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 06:27 AM
Liv

Unless you have a problem I do not think there is anything in your recipe that you need to change.

FrannyG
March 12th, 2008, 07:26 AM
Well, I've had too much of a migraine for the past few days to even think straight, so I didn't get any photos, but here's the story.

My hair is dyed with a medium brown colour. On the canopy it looked medium brown, but underneath it was looking almost black. It was driving me crazy, because I have mostly grey hair, and because my hair is so straight, the roots would show almost immediately. I'd been doing two-hour honey/conditioner treatments twice weekly for a few weeks, and definitely, the black looking hair lightened quite a bit, but with more red than suits my taste or my colouring. Of course the red stage is usually part of any lightening. So I realized I wanted more intensive treatments.

On Sunday and Monday I did 8 hour treatments with 3 parts conditioner (Alberto (VO5) Kiwi Lime Squeeze), 2 parts honey and 1 part EVOO on damp hair. Yesterday I did a 2 hour treatment. I'm very happy with the results. My hair has definitely lightened to what I would now call a very dark blonde, and instead of it having reddish highlights in the sun, the overall highlights in the sun are down to a golden hue.

I'm really delighted with the results, and my hair feels soft and silky.

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 07:30 AM
frannyg

I am so happy to hear that you got what you wanted from the treatments.

I was a bit surprised about the red stage but glad to hear that you successfully moved beyond that point with further treatments.

Thank you for posting such complete details and results.

I am especially pleased to read that the conditioning is so good as well.

FrannyG
March 12th, 2008, 07:37 AM
I should add that when I say my hair has golden highlights in the sun, it is a soft gold, not brassy, which was my fear.

I should clarify that my hair did not turn red, it just had a very reddish cast in the sun. That was definitely an improvement from the almost flat black it had been.

Thanks for all the help ktani! :flowers:

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 07:40 AM
frannyg

My pleasure and thank you for the clarification.

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 07:43 AM
frannyg

Honey lightening treatments have been reported to work well to reduce/eliminate brassiness and not cause it.

I am very glad to hear that your fear was not realized.

Lasiren
March 12th, 2008, 09:43 AM
I have the tomato sauce mix on my hair right now (just the part that was hennaed, not the new growth) and I'm hoping for good results :) Unfortunately, it stinks...the smell of tomato sauce is too acidic for me, and combined with olive oil and honey? Eww.
I like all three things, but not together! (Unless they lighten my hair...)

ktani
March 12th, 2008, 09:50 AM
Lasiren

I look forward to reading your results.

If you like the smell of coconut - you could try the honey coconut cream recipe next.

You could if you like add a bit of EVOO to that - just make sure that there is enough moisture in the mix to dilute the honey.

The tomato recipe has 3 peroxide containing ingredients - honey, tomatoes and EVOO.

The coconut cream recipe - only 2.

None of the honey lightening recipes have been reported to cause hair damage even after months of use for long periods of time on the hair.

ktani
March 13th, 2008, 10:00 AM
I just noticed the 5 star rating for this thread - thank you so much to whoever voted.

I saved many links from the original Honey threads.

Here is an amusing article that confirms tomatoes contain hydrogen peroxide and surprise - so does coffee.

kathrynrose reported that an experiment using a thick coffee paste on her hair to stain it darker a good while back - actually lightened her hair colour and was drying.

Enjoy
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.103/pub_detail.asp

ktani
March 13th, 2008, 10:20 AM
One note on coffee as a rinse or treatment.

I have read on the boards that coffee rinses can be drying - if you want to use it as a peroxide boost in a honey lightening treatment - I recommend not using too much.

A friend of mine tried a coffee rinse at my suggestion to cover grey - I did not realize it could be drying - it was and did not stain her grey at all. Ouch - that was in my pre researching in depth days.

I think coffee can stain hair somewhat - it would depend on how it was used and maybe the coffee - freshly ground beans as opposed to instant? - like certain tomato products reported to help lighten in a honey treatment but adding colour at the same time - so I recommend strand testing first.

ktani
March 13th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Plants can be tricky in terms of staining hair.

Catnip did not stain much on mohair in a test here on the boards but works on my hair and has been reported to work for others - and my older catnip and certain bulk catnip did not not stain as much as the fresher pet store catnip I use now.

Onion skins stain wool and egg shells beautifully but have been reported not to stain hair well.

ktani
March 15th, 2008, 10:17 AM
I had saved Viviane's post from the old Honey thread on using honey as a leave-in.

"Besides, if you dampen your hair out a bit and then add a pearl size amount of honey to your palms, rub vigorously and then slide your palms to hair and comb, it´s not sticky at all. It just keeps it all in place. Sticky happens with too much of the good stuff."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158943&postcount=1102 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158943&postcount=1102)

ktani
March 15th, 2008, 11:15 AM
sandrak's post from the old Honey thread on tomato products. NOTE: The link to that post no longer works.

"When I was doing the honey treatments my experience with tomato was this: When I added tomato sauce, I didn't get much red. When I used tomato paste, I got lots of red. I noticed that when I mixed all the ingredients together it looked really red, but I used it anyway. I probably didn't add enough water. So, if I decide to do the honey treatments again I will use tomato sauce."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1261371&postcount=1161 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1261371&postcount=1161)

Deliciosa
March 16th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Sounds very interesting.
I think will ad that tomato-mix to my cassia-herb-treatment. Hopefully it wont do anything with my honeyblond hair ?! What do you think?
I am still unsure what to take: canned tomatos or paste or what...pasta sauce sounds more ateable ;)
comment of my bfto that tomato-recipe: ohhhh add some spices and salt and then you have a lovely sauce :D:p

ktani
March 16th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Deliciosa

I am not sure I understand your question.

The purpose of the honey tomato recipe which includes EVOO, is to lighten hair colour.

From the Honey Article - hopefully archived.

"When some members of the Long Hair Community (LHC) commented that honey treatments had lightened their hair colour, when left on the hair for long periods of time to condition it, the Honey threads were started to determine what variables are necessary for honey to lighten hair and if the process causes hair damage.

Information was obtained from published reports on honey and LHC members were invited to provide feedback and input from their experiences using honey for the purpose of lightening their hair colour.

What follows is the culmination of months of research, analysis, discussion, and input from LHC members, who provided the pictures and recipes in this article.

Honey can lighten virgin, colour-treated and hennaed hair.
When diluted, honey slowly releases the bleaching agent hydrogen peroxide, but the amount released is substantially less than the 3% or 10 volume hydrogen peroxide sold in stores. Honey actually reduces the harmful effects of the peroxide it generates by subverting oxygen free radicals (Reference 1).

There have been no reports to date of multiple honey lightening treatments having a negative effect or damaging hair.

This is consistent with and supported by evidence that honey, applied as a moist dressing to open wounds, does not damage tissue when diluted with wound fluids (Reference 2).

The recommended time a treatment is left on the hair varies from 1-8 hours. If the minimum time of 1 hour is chosen, the treatment will need to be repeated. The results can be gradual.

Individual results can vary due to several factors: a person’s hair history, which can include product build-up or residue; whether the hair is hennaed, multiple applications of henna; the peroxide value of the honey; the recipe and method; and how often the treatment is used.

While some types of honey produce less hydrogen peroxide than others (References 2 and 5), various types of both raw and the less expensive pasteurized honeys were found to work equally well.

Conclusion
A honey lightening treatment can lighten hair colour when the honey in it is diluted to produce hydrogen peroxide and the proper timing is used.

The success of the treatment is affected by the method and ingredients of the recipe used with the honey, frequency of use, and products on the hair of the individual using the treatment.

The treatments have not been reported to cause hair damage even after repeated use for long periods of time.

When the instructions are followed, it is possible to lighten hair colour from approximately .5 of a shade to more than 1 shade."


Here are links from inside the first post of this thread.

Preferred list of Conditioners and Recipes.
http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17926&postcount=1

More on method[/URL]
http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17958&postcount=8 (http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17955&postcount=7)

Microwaving honey - for those who do not want to lighten
[URL]http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17955&postcount=7


From the Honey Article - Credits
A special note of thanks: to Maluhia, for the first honey lightening recipe for 1 hour with vinegar rinse; Viviane, for creating the first honey, tomato lightening recipe; Joliebaby, for altering the first honey, tomato lightening recipe; iris, for the first honey, amla, cassia, hibiscus lightening recipe; and everyone who gave their feedback, pictures and time.


From the Honey Article - References
1. Peter Charles Molan: (2001) Hydrogen peroxide activity. Honey as a topical antibacterial agent for treatment of infected wounds. http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

2. Waikato Honey Research Unit: (2006) 2.1.3 Hydrogen Peroxide, 2.2 Variation in Antibacterial Activity, 3.2.2 Importance of Antibacterial Activity. Honey as an Antimicrobial Agent. http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Hydrogen

3. J.R. Bell and P.N. Gillatt: (1994) Peroxide value (PV). Standards to ensure the authenticity of edible oils and fats. http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm

4. ACSH staff, directors, and scientific advisors, Dr. Ruth Kava, Dr. Leonard Flynn: (2004) Cherry Tomatoes. Holiday Dinner Menu. http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.103/pub_detail.asp

5. Airborne Honey Ltd: (1999) Glucose Oxidase. Honey Enzymes. http://www.airborne.co.nz/Enzymes.html

6. R. Mohamed, J. Fernández, M. Pineda, M. Aguilar: (2007) Roselle (Hibiscus sabdariffa) Seed Oil Is a Rich Source of γ-Tocopherol. Journal of Food Science 72 (3), S207–S211. doi:10.1111/j.1750-3841.2007.00285.x
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1750-3841.2007.00285.x

7. Dan Culbert: (2005) Red leafed hibiscus for easy color. UF/IFAS Okeechobee County Extension Service.
http://okeechobee.ifas.ufl.edu/News%20columns/Fasle%20Roselle.htm

8. J.G. Ohler, Peter Griffee, Per Diemer: (1999) Coconut Milk or Cream. Modern
Coconut Management; palm cultivation products.
http://ecoport.org/ep?SearchType=earticleView&earticleId=127&page=1420##

9. EK Ankrah: (1998 ) Shelf life studies of oil samples of coconut (Cocos nucifera) in Ghana. Ghana Jnl agric. Sci. Vol. 31 (1) 127-129.
http://www.ajol.info/viewarticle.php?id=16064

Deliciosa
March 17th, 2008, 12:26 PM
ktani, i totally understand but the question is if the red of the tomato will add reddishness to my blond...
i just would like my blond to be a little more light ;)

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Deliciosa

Pasta sauce is not supposed to add colour but to be on the safe side, I recommnd the honey coconut cream recipe - you can add some EVOO to it. If you cannot find coconut cream - you can use coconut milk.

Deliciosa
March 17th, 2008, 12:51 PM
as daft as it sounds - my hair does not like coconut in any way. No oil no milk....it dries them somehow. and i can tell i tried them all, the same result every time. I am even not really sure about EVOO last time i did it my hair was greasy and not nice (pre-oil-wash). i tried jojoba and macadamianutoil instead and my hair came out luscious. We will see ;)

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 01:31 PM
Deliciosa

Then the simplest thing for you to try, IMO, is the basic recipe - honey and conditioner - all of the information is in the links several posts up - you can increase the proportions if you like to 50:50 honey to conditioner.

As to the EVOO - the idea is not to add too much of it to a recipe and all of the recipes can be followed with the 1 tsp to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30 to 60 seconds and rinsed out - vinegar rinse.

waidz
March 17th, 2008, 05:55 PM
Are there any before and after images of members that have lightened their hair using this method ?

PS - I'm sitting with the mixture on my head right now - will leave it on overnight. I'm not so happy with the hennaed reddish tone - will post before/after pics.

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 06:29 PM
waidz

Yes, there were in both threads and in the Article - a number of them are in my photobucket account which I am currently having problems with.

A difficulty with some but certainly not all pictures was lighting - before and after pics need to be taken under the same lighting conditions.

I invite pictures for this thread - if possible - I am looking forward to yours.

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 07:25 PM
From the Honey Article

http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/th_mal1.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/mal2.jpg?t=1205802892
"Maluhia, colour-treated hair, before and after approximately 1 month, using the Colour-Treated Hair Variation Recipe, left on the hair for 1 hour, every 2-3 days."
http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/th_vivbefore.jpg http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/th_vivafter.jpg
"Viviane, multiple applications of henna and indigo, before and after a test using Recipe 3 for Hair with Multiple Layers of Henna, left on the hair for 45 minutes."

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 07:38 PM
http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/th_Raederle1.jpg http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/th_Raederle2.jpg

"Raederle, previously hennaed hair, before and after approximately 2 months, using the Basic Recipe, left on the hair for 1 hour, twice a week."

Raederle
March 17th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Hey, that's me about a year ago. I can certainly say that the lighting conditions were the same for both pictures. I'm still a honey devotee, more for the conditioning properties than the lightening. My hair hardly has any pigment left anyway, and certainly none in the top layers.

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 09:17 PM
Raederle

You know - looking at those pics I wonder if I did not grab a later pic from the thread for the after - you hair is quite a bit longer in the after pic - that is no doubt why - I edited the picture text to several months from 2 months - I never noticed that before.

The lighting conditions for your hair pics were always consistant.

Raederle
March 17th, 2008, 09:48 PM
No, you've got the correct pictures. The first was taken 10-31-06, and the second was taken 1-1-7.

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Raederle - cool - thank you - so it was just my math, lol.

Raederle
March 17th, 2008, 10:08 PM
As I scrutinize the pictures, I think my head was a little forward in the first, which would make it look as though my hair had grown more than it really did. According to my journal, the growth between the two pictures was just a bit over an inch.

ktani
March 17th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Raederle

I wondered about that - so my math was not really off - I did originally say "approximately 2 months" - close enough - I just re-edited back to the original.

Thank you for clarifying that.

waidz
March 18th, 2008, 03:59 AM
waidz

Yes, there were in both threads and in the Article - a number of them are in my photobucket account which I am currently having problems with.

A difficulty with some but certainly not all pictures was lighting - before and after pics need to be taken under the same lighting conditions.

I invite pictures for this thread - if possible - I am looking forward to yours.

Thanks ktani - for some reason I couldn't see any photos in the thread - I have had porridge brain for the past couple of days lol.

As I mentioned I did the honey treatment on my head last night. I only used honey, EVOO and conditioner, no tomato sauce. Only thing is, I forgot that the post said not to heat the honey- doh! I also wasn't sure whether you could do it over oils - I did the treatment over a Coconut and Jojoba Oiling.

BUT my hair still lightened slightly. It could be my imagination, photos will prove otherwise, but the darker reds seem lighter with a golden tone if that is possible.

My hubby has the camera so as soon as he gets home I will post photos.

My hair is however very soft and bouncy :)

Meli
March 18th, 2008, 07:09 AM
A silly question perhaps, but how does egg work in a honey lightening treatment? The reason I ask is that when I tried the basic honey + conditioner recipe (left it on for three hours) my hair got over-moisturized and felt like jelly when wet... And when it was dry I got breakage even with very gentle combing. I waited some days to see if it would get better, but I had eventually to do an egg treatment to get it back to normal.

After this disaster I have experimented with egg + honey together with a small amount of lemon juice and oil. The conditioning effects from this recipe is just lovely, but I have not noticed any particular lightening. I have not left it on for more than three hours, though.

Anything else I could try? I was thinking about that honey + coconut milk recipe, but according to the thread at TBB that is for hennaed hair. Can it be used on virgin hair as well?

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 07:28 AM
waidz

It is ok about the pictures - no one had posted any in this thread yet.

Thank you for posting your recipe and results.

I am glad that you are pleased.

It is not a good idea to do a treatment over an oil treatment although coconut oil has a peroxide value too - the hair is better wet and freshly washed - you want the honey to be fully diluted.

Results with honey lightening treatments vary and can be gradual.

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 07:36 AM
Meli

I am sorry to hear that you got breakage from a honey treatment - that has never been reported before in any of the Honey threads or on the boards that I know of - some temporary dryness - yes - breakage - no.

I cannot say what the problem was - the conditioner?

What did you have on your hair/had done to your hair before the treatment?

Maybe you need to clarify? Do a protein treatment some time before - not right before - a treatment?

A vinegar rinse after the treatment would aid combing.

Egg coats the hair - I do not recommend it but you could try it.

Check out the Preferred List of conditioners for other options there.

Any of the recipes can be used on virgin hair - depending on the hair in question - if you absolutely do not want red - do not try the pasta sauce - just in case.

The recipes for hennaed hair have extra peroxide containing ingredients but have not been reported to cause damage.

Meli
March 18th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Thank you very much for your reply, ktani.

I don't think it was the honey treatment itself that caused the breakage - it just seems like my hair doesn't like too much moisture. I have got breakage from light oiling on damp hair as well - but light oiling on dry hair works just fine. Perhaps I should be fine with a protein treatment before the honey treatment as you suggest.

The only thing I do before the treatments is WO-washing my hair.

I'll stick with my egg + honey treatment for conditioning only, and try some of the other honey recipes for lightening.

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Meli

WO is great for many - but if you are oiling regularly - you can get build-up if you are not removing the oils.

Egg does coat the hair - if you are not washing it out - that may be adding to the problem as well.

My hair is fine to medium - successive coatings not well removed have always made my hair prone to more breakage. I have never clarified - I just stopped using anything that coated too much but I do use shampoo so whatever I used eventually washed out. What I use now - catnip - does not coat my hair the same way other things I have tried did and washes out enough with each shampoo so that it is not a problem.

I recommend that you wash your hair before the honey treatment and if you like use a protein treatment before that - washing your hair first (before the protein treatment) as well. You do not need to do a protein treatment right before the honey treatment. You could and I think it would be better - to give your hair a bit of a rest - do a protein treatment a while in advance of the honey treatment.

Meli
March 18th, 2008, 12:07 PM
Actually, I haven't completely settled with a hair routine yet. I am mostly on WO, but not hardcore. So far I haven't had any problems with oil buildup, except the first time I put oil in my egg/honey mix. But that was canola :silly: and I later realized that it is not good for hair (at least not my hair). I used a cone-free SLES shampoo to get the oil out then, but sulphates aren't good for neither my hair nor my scalp... When I do light oilings, I apply the oil only on the last few inches and only occasionally when they feel a bit dry.

If I need to remove oils before a honey treatment, would CO be sufficient or should I try baking soda? I'm a bit afraid that even baking soda would be too harsh on my hair, but you'll never know if you don't try... I must admit that I haven't tried any sulphate free shampoos or shampoo-bars, but I don't know where to find such things (I live in a small place in Sweden). I'd rather not order some expensive stuff online that perhaps not work with my hair anyway, if it works with something I can buy in my local grocery store...

Ohio Sky
March 18th, 2008, 12:48 PM
I have tried this twice on my chemical black using VO5 vanilla mint tea, coconut milk and honey, and it did not even touch the color, which is only 4 or 5 applications on top of bleached hair, but it did make my still black hair very happy :)

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Meli

See if you can find a sulphate free shampoo locally - is there a health food store somewhere near you outside of your town but near enough? - if SLES is a problem - either would be gentler on your hair IMO than baking soda and more efficient at removing coatings than CO. Shampoo bars in general have a higher pH than baking soda and can leave a residue unless you use a vinegar rinse afterwards.

If finding an SLES free shampoo is a problem or expensive - you would only need to use the SLES shampoo occassionally - and you can dilute it.

Meli
March 18th, 2008, 01:12 PM
Yeah, I suppose diluted 'poo occasionally wouldn't hurt too much if I can't find anything better. I'll just continue my honey experiments then. Thank you again for your help! :flowers:

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 01:24 PM
Ohio Sky

Chemical black hair colour is supposed to be one of the hardest hair colours to budge or lift and I am sorry to hear that the honey lightening treatments so far have not helped but I am happy to hear that they left your hair in good condition.

The only thing I can think of that might help would be the honey tomato recipe - it was the first honey lightening treatment to affect a change on multiple layers of henna for some people.

The key to it working IMO, is that it contains not 2 but 3 peroxide containing ingredients - the honey, the tomato and the EVOO.

MeMyselfandI
March 18th, 2008, 02:13 PM
ktani, Thank you for starting this thread and the honey link.

I used coconut oil on my hair last night. I washed it out today with clarifying shampoo, combed out my hair then applied my mix. I used a slight variation of method 3.


3. The Recipe: equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a platic bag or wrap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and condition if desired.
The conditioner can be left out of the recipe if desired, or a preferred conditioner is hard to obtain, and water added to ensure that there is enough moisture to dilute the honey.
In this recipe, the coconut cream provides a peroxide boost ."

Actually I mixed:
1/6 extra virgin olive oil,
1/6 conditioner sauve natural
1/3 honey
1/3 coconut milk
a bit of water

I had it on my hair for about 2 1/2 hours. Many drips.

I washed my hair out with my regualr shampoo. I had a hard time putting my fingers through my hair. I thought it was honey or something so I washed a second time. I still could not put my fingers through it. I condtioned with my regualr condtioner. I had a hard time combing it.

What would have caused my hair to tangle like this? I am baffled.

I have used the condtioner and the honey in the SMT before.

I have never used EVOO on my hennaed hair before.


I had only done one henna full head before this. The some henna came out of my old virgin hair, enough henna came off, that I can see a demacation line at the front of my hy head where the henna was even.

My greys still have the henna on it and so does the hair that was previously tinted. I think my colour looks more orange now then before. Before it looked a darker orange red, now it is lighter.

Another question, would 3% peroxide give the same effect on hennaed hair.

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 02:45 PM
MeMyselfandI

Love your name! and you are welcome.

Thank you for posting your results. Henna can be tricky in terms of the colour you get when it is lightened.

I do not know why you got such tangling - it sounds as though the treatment did not wash/rinse out very well.

I would recommend skipping the conditioner next time and using the vinegar rinse mentioned in the recipes after the treatment.

Also - use enough water in the mix to dilute the honey - it sounds like you did have enough from your results but something or things did not play well together and caused the tangling.

Was the coconut milk full fat?

3% or 10 volume peroxide is much (See "Hydrogen Peroxide Activity") harsher (http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html) than honey and there was one report of successive peroxide treatments to lighten/remove henna causing enough damage to warrant cutting hair off - in another thread.

MeMyselfandI
March 18th, 2008, 03:33 PM
The coconut milk, was not fat reduced. There was a can that had reduced hat on it. There is a bit of water in the coconut milk. The milk had some tiny solids in it. The company is clic.

The ingredient list is: coconut milk (meat extract), water.

Now that my hair is dry, it is the softest I ever remember it ever being, even when it was virgin.

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 03:42 PM
MeMyselfandI

I am glad to hear that the conditioning proved successful.

I am at a loss as to the tangling except perhaps the water content of the recipe as a whole - honey can leave a residue - that is why the vinegar rinse is helpful.

The Suave conditioner should be ok depending on the ingredients - EVOO has not been reported to be a problem.

You could try the tomato recipe next - there is no conditioner in that one and no tangling problems reported.

If you want more red - crushed tomatoes were reported to add colour - red - while lightening - the pasta sauce - no.

MeMyselfandI
March 18th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I lost my post.

ktani,

Once again thanks.

I wonder if it is the protein in the coconut. I posted a question about proteins.

I like the way my skin around my hairline felt. Now to figure out what to put on my face.

I thought the vinegar rinse was for the first method.

So is the vinegar rinse done before the shampoo or after?

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 04:16 PM
MeMyselfandI

I have lost a post or 2 in my time on the boards - usually my net going down - frustrating.

Coconut milk has not been reported to be a problem but coconut cream is the preferred way to go with that recipe.

The vinegar rinse can be used with any of the recipes and would follow shampooing and conditioning if you choose to do both following the treatment.

See how your hair feels when you rinse out the treatment - a vinegar rinse may be all you need. There is flexability with that - some like to shampoo and vinegar rinse, some shampoo and condition and vinegar rinse - etc. It is up to you. I wrote what the people who contributed the recipes did for the most part but everyone is different.

MeMyselfandI
March 18th, 2008, 06:27 PM
ktani,

Next time I will use the vinegar rinse.

I only saw the coconut milk which I thought was cream. I will ask in other places to see for the cream.

I also have extra virgin unrefined coconut oil.

ktani
March 18th, 2008, 06:37 PM
MeMyselfandI

I look forward to reading how things go for you - if you have any other questions - just post - I will do my best to assist.

CaityBear
March 18th, 2008, 08:34 PM
I might have to try this sometime...hmmmm

ktani
March 21st, 2008, 09:25 AM
Some interesting, IMO, honey information.

"Honey contains a number of acids which include amino acids.... The average pH of honey is 3.9 (with a typical range of 3.4 to 6.1)." See "General Information"
http://www.honey.com/downloads/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf (http://www.honey.com/downloads/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf)

"The Manuka honey had a pH level of 5.67. All the Canadian honey had an average pH of 6 “ See "Results and Conclusions"
http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5136

ktani
March 21st, 2008, 11:27 AM
Perhaps the amino acids in honey, however small in percentage, contribute to honey's conditioning effects on hair - just speculation on my part.

More on amino acids and honey
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-48KVG8N-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=45f68808a0298c3dd7b2308f9ce08ae8

So, like the peroxide content - different honeys have different amino acid concentrations.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15055300

That could explain why there are different conditioning results with honey treatments to some degree, just as there are different lightening results due to peroxide content variation.

ktani
March 22nd, 2008, 12:43 PM
Coffee does contain peroxide but it can still impart some colour and is reported to be drying to hair.

Here is something I had saved on coffee dye (http://www.ineedcoffee.com/03/dye/print.asp) - with pictures.

ktani
March 22nd, 2008, 12:55 PM
Here is some honey bee history (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061025181534.htm).

yuccalyptus
March 23rd, 2008, 02:43 PM
Has anyone had success using honey just to lighten their roots?

I have a few inches of virgin darker blonde that clashes with my lightened length. It is just a few shades off and my roots are slowly lightening as I spend more time outside, but I would love to accelerate the process.

ktani
March 23rd, 2008, 03:12 PM
yuccalyptus

Yes, honey has been reported to lighten virgin hair.

The basic recipe should work for that.

Here is the post from this thread with most of the information from the Honey Article plus more.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

Here is an alternate option you could try from the old LHC - the thread link shown no longer works.

Originally posted by Strawberrycurls
Lemon Juice and Conditioner
"I have lived in an apartment with well water. The minerals were darkening my hair. I found that mixing lemon juice with a good conditioner was an excellent way to lighten my hair without getting the extra dryness from acidity in the lemon juice.
Use: 1 tablespoon lemon Juice, 2-3 tablespoons conditioner, Let it sit in hair for an hour you can apply heat if you like. I made extra and stored it for later use. "
From her 2nd post, same thread
"My Hair is blond and I mainly used it because my roots start out dark before the sun gets them to lighten up. Since it is winter I am not outside that much so they haven't been lightening up as usual. The Lemon Conditioner lightened them pretty close to my regular color. I left it in for an hour under a plastic sack and blow dried it every once in awhile for the heat. I didn't sit in the sun. and I am sorry but I don't have any pictures of it." http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=40946

ktani
March 23rd, 2008, 03:42 PM
The lighting in these 2 pics is not quite the same but there is lightening - from the Honey Article.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/beforevirgin.png http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/ktanimara/Aftervirgin.png
"Minx, virgin hair, before and after 1 honey lightening treatment using the Basic Recipe, left on the hair for 2 hours."

itslex71
March 23rd, 2008, 04:01 PM
I haven't done this in forever. I think I'll be sleeping with honey and conditioner on my hair tonight. :-)

ktani
March 23rd, 2008, 04:32 PM
itslex71

I look forward to reading your results.

ktani
March 23rd, 2008, 05:13 PM
Even though there were initial concerns about damage from honey lightening treatments because of the peroxide content - the research on honey not causing damage to human tissue when used on wounds and the reports to date from the 2 previous Honey threads, other threads on honey used for conditiong and this one - honey has not been reported to damage hair.

One person in this thread reported breakage - but was not stating that the honey lightening treatment was the cause - she had breakage prior to the treatment too from light oiling on damp hair.

MeMyselfandI
March 23rd, 2008, 06:10 PM
ktani,

Thank you for your support in the honey thread. It is much appreciated.

ktani
March 23rd, 2008, 06:53 PM
MeMyselfandI

My pleasure!

yuccalyptus
March 25th, 2008, 02:41 PM
yuccalyptus

Yes, honey has been reported to lighten virgin hair.

The basic recipe should work for that.

Here is the post from this thread with most of the information from the Honey Article plus more.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

Here is an alternate option you could try from the old LHC - the thread link shown no longer works.

Originally posted by Strawberrycurls
Lemon Juice and Conditioner
"I have lived in an apartment with well water. The minerals were darkening my hair. I found that mixing lemon juice with a good conditioner was an excellent way to lighten my hair without getting the extra dryness from acidity in the lemon juice.
Use: 1 tablespoon lemon Juice, 2-3 tablespoons conditioner, Let it sit in hair for an hour you can apply heat if you like. I made extra and stored it for later use. "
From her 2nd post, same thread
"My Hair is blond and I mainly used it because my roots start out dark before the sun gets them to lighten up. Since it is winter I am not outside that much so they haven't been lightening up as usual. The Lemon Conditioner lightened them pretty close to my regular color. I left it in for an hour under a plastic sack and blow dried it every once in awhile for the heat. I didn't sit in the sun. and I am sorry but I don't have any pictures of it." http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=40946

Thank you ktani! That is very interesting about the lemon juice and conditioner. I have very hard water too and the thing Strawberrycurls said about her roots not getting enough sun in the winter is exactly my situation. I think I will definitely try it out! I think I'll still try the honey too as my hair really liked it when I used it several months ago.

ktani
March 25th, 2008, 02:47 PM
yuccalyptus

You are welcome - I would use 3 to one, conditioner to lemon for the lemon juice recipe - and a conditioner with plenty of water in it - the thinner ones.

Still, there was no reported dryness or irritation mentioned. It is unfortunate that the conditioner used was not named in the thread.

DolphinPrincess
March 26th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Hello Ladies, I have a few questions. I have multiple layers (3 or 4) of henna and indigo and am looking for a way to lighten it up some. I am actually looking for a red color, so I'm think I'll try the tomato recipe, but I was wondering, is there anyone who know which tomato product works the best? I have both tomato sauce and tomato paste in the house, and just want to know what would be best. Also, if I make too large of a batch, would this freeze well and still be effective? TIA!

ktani
March 26th, 2008, 08:37 PM
DolphinPrincess

You could go with either tomato product or crushed tomatoes.

It is recommended to make a batch fresh each time - no one reported freezing a batch for later use and the results of doing that.

DolphinPrincess
March 26th, 2008, 08:48 PM
Thank you very much Ktani!

ktani
March 26th, 2008, 09:07 PM
DolphinPrincess

My pleasure.

Myrddin
March 28th, 2008, 04:30 PM
Well, this night I have been using the basic mixture of condish and honey. This morning I rinsed for a very long time, because I remember crispy hair after using something with honey. Though this times it worked. It is slightly stiff, but moisturized. I think I can even see a changing in color. My mother confirmed that I look like having blonde highlights (I´m middleblond). Cool.

But I have to admit sleeping with this kind of treatment wasn´t really relaxing. ;-)

ktani
March 28th, 2008, 04:36 PM
Thank you for the feedback.

I am glad to read that you got colour change.

If you try it again try the weak vinegar rinse afterward - 1 tsp of your preferred vinegar to 24 oz of water - left on the hair 30-60 seconds and rinsed out. It can help with any stiffness by removing treatment residue.

What conditioner did you use and what was your recipe (proportions)?

You do not have to sleep with the treatment on your hair - a couple of hours should be all you need - you can always repeat the treatment.

Henna Sooq
March 28th, 2008, 04:42 PM
After years of using only henna and being fussy I guess in my pregnancy :) I decided to try this recipe to tone down some of my reddish tones and keep myself a freshening up

Used 50 % cassia obovata
50% honey
and my liquid was a strong chamomile tea. I don't measure much but I use about 200 grams of powder usually.

So anyhow I mixed my chamomile with my cassia and let that sit (after the chamomile was brewed and cooled some) for about an hour or 2.
Then I added my honey which also added more liquid which I didn't realize the first time around. So I recommend just doing it slowly a bit a time when adding any liquid. Mixed well.

Then I applied and left that on my hair for like 2 hours and washed out thoroughly as possible. I felt refreshed for sure.

So now I am going to do that one more time, and then switching to yemen and see how the change goes. I just don't want my hair too dark-ish looking from henna build-up.

ktani
March 28th, 2008, 04:50 PM
Henna Sooq

First - congratulations on the pregnancy - I did not know about it.

Second - thank you for your recipe - did you get any lightening and how was the condition of your hair?

Hennaed hair can be more resistant to the honey lightening treatments - that is why there are specific recipes for hair with multiple layers of henna - there have been reports of the tomato and the coconut cream recipes being successful.

Henna Sooq
March 28th, 2008, 05:37 PM
Ktani, thanks!!
I am due in June. On the old board I had kept a constant update on the pregnancy thread, but I am just getting myself back together to participate like I used to. There was a lot going on and a move in the summer to Toronto, along with the new baby! I am having a girl!! I am so happy :) yes I am discriminating I have many boys already :) and just one princess so far.

I found that the honey recipe that I shared, worked well to freshen me up and get me toned down just a touch, but that was why I felt that I should do another application to bring it down once again some. I really felt "fresh" though afterwards and my hair felt great! I was happy.

ktani
March 28th, 2008, 05:49 PM
Henna Sooq

Welcome to Toronto!

How many boys?

How nice that you are finally having a girl!

Thank you for your results - if it works - keep doing it if that is what you want to do.

I am glad to read that your recipe gave you what you were after it to do and that the condition of your hair is so good as well.

Henna Sooq
March 29th, 2008, 08:26 AM
Thanks Ktani!

I am excited about moving to Toronto, it'll be a fresh new place and we'll finally get to settle down for some time. We move often enough. From Montreal, to Connecticut, to New York, then to Maryland, and then back up to Montreal, and now Toronto, the furthest west we'd ever been.

I actually have 4 boys right now, and I do have a daughter. But I am happy and the kids are too, about having another sister! So I hope everything goes smoothly though in health, and recovery.

Welcome for the share, I recommend the honey often now for those who may want to go that route.
Enjoy your weekend!

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Henna Sooq

I misunderstood your post saying only one princess - I thought you were referring to the baby you are still carrying. You have my best wishes that all goes smoothly with health and recovery.

You have a great weekend too!

DolphinPrincess
March 29th, 2008, 01:02 PM
Hello, I have aother question. I tried the tomato recipe to lighten henna'd hair, and it worked slightly, but the smell was almost unbarable to me. I'd like to try the cocont cream recipe, but when I went to get coconut cream, all I could fnd was cream of coconut that contains added sugar among other things. Is this still the right stuff?

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 01:19 PM
DolphinPrincess

Yes - coconut cream can contain additives - sugar - sometimes gum which IMO, could affect the conditioning outcome but not necessarily the lightening outcome.

You could try it and add a 3rd peroxide containing ingredient like a bit and I mean a small amount of EVOO.

Someone reported a problem adding EVOO to that recipe in terms of tangling, I believe.

I will double check that.

Ok - post 57 - discussion through to and including post 60
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148&page=6

discussion continued posts 61-63
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148&page=7

Myrddin
March 29th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Thank you for the feedback.

I am glad to read that you got colour change.

If you try it again try the weak vinegar rinse afterward - 1 tsp of your preferred vinegar to 24 oz of water - left on the hair 30-60 seconds and rinsed out. It can help with any stiffness by removing treatment residue.

What conditioner did you use and what was your recipe (proportions)?

You do not have to sleep with the treatment on your hair - a couple of hours should be all you need - you can always repeat the treatment.

Hi ktani, thanks for the info.

I will try the vinegar rinse next time.

Well, my mixture, I took one table spoon of raw honey, one spoon of mostly ao rosa mosqueta and some rest of another organic german brand. I also added another table spoon of a quite "strange" conditioner (Sanoll - Haar Intensiv Spülung). It´s strange cause it doesn´t contain the emulsifier cetyl or ceterayl alcohol, but a lot of aloe vera, some diary from the goat and a few oils.
So, it´s a mixture I won´t be able to reproduce, the ao and the other condish were samples.

I´m interesting to know how this method works with other conditioner, organic and conventional, maybe even with cones.

DolphinPrincess
March 29th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Thank you so much, again!! I'll post results after I do the second treatment. I just have to avoid my roots now... :o;)

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Myrddin

Thank you for posting the details.

It sounds to me as if the stiffness could have come from the aloe gel.

If you cannot get the preferred list conditioners where you are - this post has everything in terms of information
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

you could try the coconut cream or tomato recipes depending on what you prefer. Pasta sauce is not reported to add red.

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 02:11 PM
DolphinPrincess

You are most welcome - it is hard, now that this thread is getting longer, to find specific information unless you constantly read it all - I do - I refer back to check things.

I look forward to reading how things go for you.

Myrddin
March 29th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Myrddin

Thank you for posting the details.

It sounds to me as if the stiffness could have come from the aloe gel.

If you cannot get the preferred list conditioners where you are - this post has everything in terms of information
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31



@ktani
The condish with the aloe gel doesn´t make stiff hair. I guess it´s really the honey, cause before I never had success with honey treatments, but this time it was good and the stiffness is just very light. Today it´s completely gone. I guess I have to make the vinegar rinse.

I will have a look at the conditioner list, though I assume that most of them won´t be available in Germany. But I´ll see.

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Myrddin

With the stiffness being gone, the aloe conditioner having a positive history and your past results with honey - it probably is the honey then - honey can and has been reported to do that.

The vinegar rinse should help. Honey can leave a residue.

Also make sure that in your treatment recipe, you have enough moisture - add a bit of water if necessary - to thoroughly dilute the honey - that may help too.

Myrddin
March 29th, 2008, 03:44 PM
Myrddin

With the stiffness being gone, the aloe conditioner having a positive history and your past results with honey - it probably is the honey then - honey can and has been reported to do that.

The vinegar rinse should help. Honey can leave a residue.

Also make sure that in your treatment recipe, you have enough moisture - add a bit of water if necessary - to thoroughly dilute the honey - that may help too.

That´s a good hint.

It´s very impressive that you are such a helping person, ktani.

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 04:13 PM
Myrddin

Thank you for the compliment.

I enjoy helping out.

This is actually the 5th Honey thread counting the Article, which, for all intents and purposes is here, in this thread, in pieces.

I have read every post and reread them (I saved a lot of information) and have learned from all of you - even though I cannot use honey on my hair - I don't want lightening and although I can use honey on my skin in small amounts, my scalp is sensitive to it.

But I did research honey thoroughly and I understand how it works - I find it fascinating.

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 05:46 PM
I updated this post to include the Honey Article credits and references.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

Myrddin
March 29th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Wow, Ktani,

good job. Actually, I really like that you are mentioning your resources. You have a quite scientific approach.

ktani
March 29th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Myrddin

Thank you - as a non scientist I appreciate the compliment.

Others contributed to the Honey threads discussions too - and their viewpoints were invaluable.

Everyone who posts results contributes information that is valuable, IMO.

There is a lot of well documented, well referenced material on honey research and the peroxide levels of different plants and oils - just not on honey and hair.

I always try to find clinical research on anything I do research.

I have posted this before - it was sent to me by an LHC member.

Honey Wound Dressings and cough remedy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22398921 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22398921)

ktani
March 30th, 2008, 09:36 AM
There is a honey lightening recipe by Henna Sooq, that she reports worked on her hennaed hair to tone it down a bit.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=38661&postcount=86

Discussion
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=38731&postcount=88

Myrddin
March 31st, 2008, 12:52 PM
Hi everybody!

After the honey treatment you could see the lightening effect even on greasy hair. I washed my hair yesterday evening and had the impression that my hair is really lighter. A friend of mine confirmed it. Cool, huh?

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 01:05 PM
Myrddin

Great news!

Thank you for posting that - it is always helpful IMO, to have other opinions too - your mom's and now your friend's.

I know that with my own hair, I have had difficulty occasionally, determining what colour it looks like in certain lighting, with regard to the catnip I use to stain my grey/white.

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 02:44 PM
This information is very interesting, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2125

As it turns out, cinnamon has a peroxide value - a pretty good one too.

POV - Peroxide value of cinnamon and other spices - Scroll down the page for more information on cassia and true cinnamon.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

The cinnamon you buy can be cassia but it is not cassia senna (cassia obovata).
The “other" cassia - the one sold as cinnamon - below.

"Most of the spice sold as cinnamon in the United States and Canada ......is actually cassia." See "Production and uses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassia)

So, it looks like cassia "cinnamon" might be another peroxide booster to add to a honey lightening recipe - extra peroxide with honey's conditioning benefits!

Note: cardamom and black pepper have even higher peroxide values than cinnamon, according to that list above - I am not sure black pepper is such a good idea for a hair recipe.

Cardamom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

http://www.naturalstandard.com/index-abstract.asp?create-abstract=/monographs/herbssupplements/patient-cardamom.asp

DolphinPrincess
March 31st, 2008, 03:27 PM
Hmmm... The cinnamon thing is interesting... It makes me want to experiment with my coconut cream treatment. (I'm just about to go mix it up and apply it to my hair) But I don't want to have too many things going on in it. I think what I find most interesting is that on the POV table, the Tumeric, Cardamom, Black Pepper and Nutmeg are all even higher than Cinnamon (at least in ground spice form) I think I may have to start experimenting, just not today. :D

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 03:40 PM
DolphinPrincess

It is fascinating, isn't it?

Turmeric is not supposed to be eaten in great quantity, either is cinnamon - so I would no add a lot to a recipe - I doubt, according to that thread that it would be necessary.

I have also seen cinnamon listed as a skin irritant in places on the net (both cassia and cinnamon oils are mentioned as skin senitising in the book (linked below) - so I recommend patch testing first - eating a small amount of a spice is one thing - wearing it for a few hours is another matter entirely.

Scroll down to "Cassia - in industry" re the oils
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

firebird
March 31st, 2008, 04:02 PM
It's been really interesting reading this thread, thanks so much ktani for compiling all the info so well!

I have dark (dishwater?) blonde hair growing out lighter blonde dye - currently at 24 inches with just less than half the new growth. I've been experimenting with honey to try and lighten the new growth, as I ideally want it lighter but don't want to use chemical dyes. Honey has definitely lightened it. I usually leave it on for 3-4 hours and use a mixture of about 70% honey to 30% VO5 conditioner (the passionfruit one).

My hair tends towards greasy and I don't get any crunchiness/obvious residue from the honey, it just feels really soft and well conditioned. I use cheapo White Rain shampoo to rinse out the honey. I don't use conditioner as it makes my hair lank and weighed down (I've tried many and can't seem to find one light enough), but honey conditions it really well. I took a picture of my hair last week and will do another after more honey, hopefully there will be a demonstrable difference and I will try to post it here!

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 04:07 PM
firebird

Thank you for the kind words and you are most welcome - I am glad that you have found the information useful.

Thank you as well for posting your results with your recipe and details.

I am so pleased to read that you have had only positive results with both lightening and good hair condition, and no tweaks necessary to make the experience as good as it could be.

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 04:13 PM
This is good to know - no dryness or damage reported from cinnamon use.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=42360&postcount=23

DolphinPrincess
March 31st, 2008, 04:38 PM
Ok, I went against my better judgement and added in cinnamon and pumpkin pie spice (its the only thing I had that contained nutmeg) anyway. My mix has been on for about 40 minutes and no irritation yet, but I am keeping an eye on it. I'll post my exact mix when I post pics. I'll also post the exact tomato recipe I used then as well. Thanks so much for all the helpful info, ktani!

I also have to add that the coconut cream treatment is the first thing I've put on my hair that I didn't get drippies with. That includes henna and indigo.

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 05:14 PM
DolphinPrincess

That sounds good to me - however, the honey in the recipe needs to be diluted enough to continue to produce peroxide - I am glad that you have no drippies - just make sure that you also have enough moisture.

You can spray on extra water if need be, under the plastic (remove the plastic and recover), if you are unsure.

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 07:07 PM
Both cassia and cinnamon oils can be sensitising - Scroll down to "Cassia - in industry"
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

ktani
March 31st, 2008, 11:16 PM
An article on skin contact and spices - nutmeg can be problematic See "Delayed allergy to spices".
http://www.mf.uni-lj.si/acta-apa/acta-apa-01-1/1-clanek.html

nutmeg oil - I do not recommend
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/es1009111.html

I think that it comes down to - patch testing first for allergies and skin sensitivity and not using too much of a spice in a honey lightening recipe too often.

IMO, using small or reasonable amounts of a spice should be fine.

Henna Sooq
April 1st, 2008, 08:03 AM
amazing ktani you are on a roll!!

ktani
April 1st, 2008, 08:43 AM
Henna Sooq

Thank you.

IMO, it keeps coming back to what got the Honey threads started - the natural peroxide content in plants and foods.

It appears that naturally, with the other elements of the plant or food in place, peroxide is not damaging to skin or hair - from all reports to date.

I believe that is because it is still much less strong than the peroxide you can buy and that other constituents in the plant or food may buffer or counteract peroxide's more harmful qualities, as is the case with honey.

From the Honey Article
"Honey actually reduces the harmful effects of the peroxide it generates by subverting oxygen free radicals (Reference 1).

1. Peter Charles Molan: (2001) Hydrogen peroxide activity. Honey as a topical antibacterial agent for treatment of infected wounds.
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html"

More from the Honey Article can be found here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

ktani
April 1st, 2008, 11:29 AM
Antioxident activity of Cassia "cinnamon"
This cassia shows promise as a dietary supplement
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12916067

but it should not be over consumed.

"European health agencies have warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, ... toxic component called coumarin.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassia

ktani
April 1st, 2008, 12:11 PM
Cardamom and cinnamon as potential cancer treatments
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18260732?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Culinary spices - cardamom, cinnamon, nutmeg, turmeric and others - contribute to inhibiting biomolecular damage
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18063286?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

"There is some evidence to suggest that turmeric extracts can be toxic to the liver ... taken in high doses.....prolonged period of time."
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21874

Turmercic in the news - possible cancer prevention - date 2005
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002619095_healthturmeric13.html

Turmeric in human trials - theraputic agent - cancer - date 2008
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18324353?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

sky
April 1st, 2008, 02:22 PM
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...4&postcount=31

I did this honey and conditioner for eight hours and totally fried the tips of my hair. Had to cut it off.

This IS bleach! It IS peroxide. Beware.

sky

ktani
April 1st, 2008, 03:58 PM
sky

I am so sorry to read that - what recipe did you use and what was on your hair before the treatment?

Which conditioner?

Yours is the first report of damage following a honey lightening treatment in 5 threads.

I do not doubt your results - I am just curious - many members leave honey and conditioner on their hair for hours, just to condition.

And one LHC member used honey in her hair 24/7 for months with no damage reported as well as frequent honey lightening treatments.

I seem to remember you had dryness from a honey treatment once before but nothing like this - how much did you have to trim?

sky
April 1st, 2008, 07:22 PM
You remember this exact episode! I talked about it quite a bit, so I am very surprised that the general knowledge is that no one has ever been damaged by this.

I used honey and conditioner. Left it on for 8 hours. No lightening occured, only fried ends.

I lost a half inch! And I still have dry tips.

There was nothing on my hair before the treatment. It had been natural for nearly two years at that point.

All in all, this was the worst thing I've done to my hair since coming here!

ktani
April 1st, 2008, 11:14 PM
sky

If we are talking about the same episode - that was very early on in the first Honey thread.

What I remember is that you had dryness and that your hair recovered with further conditioning.

I do not recall a discussion of you having damage from the treatment that required you to have to trim your hair.

Damage in terms of breakage or split ends is not something I recall being stated at all in your posts with regard to honey. This was December 2006 or there about.

If I did I would have mentioned it and noted it in my discussions with others in the thread too.

Back then, especially in the first few pages of Honey, a number of those participating in the discussions me included, wondered just what honey could do and how the condition of the hair would be affected over time as well as from a single lightening treatment.

The research I did at the time was just underway and no conclusions were even thought of without feedback continuing to come in, posted in detail.

If details were not given, then as now - I would ask questions about recipes, methods and the condition of the hair following a treatment.

As the thread continued and the other Honey threads followed - you did not post again and I do not believe that you posted in all more than twice.

If I am mistaken I apologize but damage as opposed to just dryness is not something I believe I would forget. I certainly would not have deliberately overlooked it. It would have changed the outcome of how I continued to do the threads, the Article and the discussions therein.

There was and is no reason I do any of that in any way other than honestly.

sky
April 2nd, 2008, 08:32 AM
Gee, ktani, I sure wish I could recall everything about this incident concerning my hair as clearly as do you!

I stopped talking about it because no one else seemed interested. I discussed it quite a bit in my own journal, where I always have such a receptive audience.

I struggled w/ the fried tips for months, conditioner never helped and it finally had to be cut.

ktani
April 2nd, 2008, 08:43 AM
sky

I never read your journal but I did read and reread the Honey threads - I still do with the new ones - this being the most current, to refer back to things people post before I reply and to continue discussions.

That would explain the difference in what you are talking about.

I do remember that you had a problem with your ends but not as I said with the damage you now detail.

ktani
April 2nd, 2008, 08:55 AM
sky

It is unfortunate that you felt no one in the threads was intersted in your continuing struggle. I for one, would have been.

No one else has reported the kind of results you now discuss here.

In fact I am interested in the kind of damage you describe as fried - split? broken?- was it just the ends that were affected?

ktani
April 2nd, 2008, 10:08 AM
sky


You remember this exact episode! !

With help, I got a hold of the original Honey thread - archived. I would have gone back to the thread before responding to you, to check, but I have not been able to access it until now. I prefer not to go by memory alone. I wish that I had remembered it better.

You are right - I was wrong - my mistake. So much for my trying to remember hundreds of posts in perfect detail especially from that long ago.

You started posting in January 07, you had dry hair and fried ends from using honey with cholesterol cream and discussed not being able to hold out from trimming - you had not trimmed yet.

You were doing WO at the time, no conditioner.

You had read the Honey and Conditioner thread before attempting the honey lightening treatment after seeing no downside posted there.

You and I posted back and forth a few times.

I do not know how I did not remember to include that in further discussions - details of your damage were not discussed in terms of specifics.

My apologies.

ktani
April 2nd, 2008, 10:18 AM
sky

The only thing I can think of and I am not making excuses - there is none for the oversight, is that at the time I was still monitoring all feedback and nothing like your results followed - reports of dryness and tangling yes and that had been resolved with no long term effects - reports of hair being fried no - not with that term being used or the term damage - not then and up to and including now - that I have checked.

Knowing what I do now - certain conditioners do not work well with honey at all - you had no drips with your treatment and from one of your posts it sounds like you did the treatment twice on 2 separate occassions - you posted your recipe in detail - it sounds as if the honey was not well diluted - you got no lightening at all and tangled hair - that is consistant with reports of using honey with some heavy conditioners that do not work for the treatments. That still does not account for for your ends being fried - I have no answer or theory on that.

WO did not help and you reported that no conditioner you ever used could fix damage in your experience - mine too - you even had to use serum on your ends at the time.

Someone else, who used and still uses honey for conditioning and had lightening success, actually did respond to your post with theories at the time - that your problems could have been from your water - discussions looked at all possibilities - and that perhaps there were coatings on your hair from previous products - there was definitely empathy there and the recognition that not all treatments work for everyone.

ktani
April 2nd, 2008, 11:13 AM
sky

If what you call fried ends = crispy ends - yes, that has come up several times in the Honey threads - honey can leave a residue.

No one has reported that as damage.

It has usually been resolved by washing with shampoo or using a vinegar rinse after the honey lightening treatment and has not been reported to result in long term effects on the condition of the hair.

WO would not IMO, remove honey residue or any residue.

Since you did not get any lightening - consistant as I have said with using honey with certain conditioners, I doubt very much that the peroxide in the honey you used had any effect on your hair. Some honeys produce little to almost no peroxide.

People have reported very dry, crispy ends and tangling from oil use on occassion - I do not interpret that as damage - they clarified and the issue was resolved.

With honey residue - clarifying is not neccessary.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 06:17 AM
Apparently cinnamon can add a reddish tone to the hair so, if that is not wanted, one of the other spices might be a better choice.
"it adds a subtle red color "
http://www.wikihow.com/Lighten-Your-Hair-With-Cinnamon

For darker hair, that may be fine.

Honey and cinnamon hi-lights - from a blog - with progressive pictures of the results of each treatment.
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

MeMyselfandI
April 3rd, 2008, 08:10 AM
How long does the peroxide stay in a honey mix?

I thought the hydrogen peroxide would have decomposed by now.

I was totally surprised yesterday. I used some SMT I had made a couple of weeks ago, and some of the henna colour lifted. I liked the colour I had, I can see some more of the henna colour from a previous henna. I had used coconut oil before the SMT. I have not noticed coconut oil, changing my henna colour in the past. I used an unrefined coconut oil this time. Would that have anything to do with it as well?

I did rinse with vinegar after washing with sulfate free shampoo and conditioned. I rinsed the vinegar.


ktani,

I do not know if you remember a much earlier post about hard hair. I think the sulphate shampoos may of had something to do with it. I noticed that my hair is much softer with the sulphate free shampoo.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 08:24 AM
MeMyselfandI

No one really knows how long the peroxide produced by honey will stay active in a mix - because of concern about that and possibe storage methods - if water is added to a recipe and you do not use it right away - IMO, it should definitely be stored in the fridge - even with that - how long will any recipe keep?

I have always recommended making fresh batches of a honey lightening mix each time.

You did use the vinegar rinse - it is possible that is why your hair is softer but certain shampoos - sulphate and not - if they are too strong from my experience, can cause "hard" hair.

Coconut oil has a peroxide value too.

You actually used 2 peroxide containing ingredients in your SMT application.

MeMyselfandI
April 3rd, 2008, 09:04 AM
ktani,

I used the coconut oil alone as an oil treatment.

The SMT I had made was for conditioning the hair not for lightening.

Is there a way to enjoy the conditoning of honey without the lightening affect?

ktani, I am not sure how much the sulphates plays apart, but I noticed that the different sulfate shampoos make my hair feel hard, yet not the unsulfate. Is that because of henna or other things I have no idea. My hair is a dry and needs moisture does that play a part? I have more questions then answers.

At least with the other shampoo my hair does not feel the same way. Rinsing with vinegar is a nice bonus. Live and learn.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 09:12 AM
MeMyselfandI

I would not worry too much about whether the shampoo you use is sulphate or not - go by the results - if your non suplhate shampoo works better and you find than non sulphate shampoos in general work better for you - that is what is important, IMO.

The way to deactivate the enzyme that produces the peroxide in honey I recommend, is to microwave the honey over 10 seconds and under one minute.

It will make the honey runnier, and some reports say a bit less effective than not doing it but nuking 10 to 15 seconds is in the original SMT instructions. That is probably why IMO, many SMT users never found that the treatment lightened their hair.

I did understand that you did not want to lighten with the SMT you used.

Thank you for the clarification of how you used the coconut oil.

Other possible ways to deactivate the peroxide in diluted honey - untested - is a bit of raw potato juice or yeast added to it - I am not sure yeast is such a great idea - no one tried either of these that I know of and reported.

MeMyselfandI
April 3rd, 2008, 09:27 AM
ktani,

Thanks, I will microwave the SMT next time. I still have some left. Then I will microwave the honey.

I bought the sulphate free shampoo because it was a moisture shampoo. This was before I knew about SLSs or cones.

I do not know if the shampoo is better or not in cleansing ability. I do know that my hair feels soft when shampooing. I love the smell. LOL.

iris
April 3rd, 2008, 09:40 AM
MeMyselfandI, could it be that the treatment just pulled some unbound henna out? It takes awhile for the dye to really bind to the hair after you henna, and people also vary in how well the dye binds to their hair at all.

If that's what happened, your lightening was completely unrelated to the honey peroxide - it would have happened with any kind of deep treatment.

Iris

MeMyselfandI
April 3rd, 2008, 10:09 AM
Iris,

I hope that is the case. I will still nuke the honey. To be on the same side.

How long does it take for henna to bind to hair, so treatments does not affect it?

I do not think it was henna that had not washed out, or else it would have come out when I washed my hair earlier. Or I would assume so. It was noticible on the greys as well.

I love the LHC.

My hair will be healthy.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 11:51 AM
MeMyselfandI

I agree with you - microwave the SMT and then mirowave the honey in the future just to be sure.

The peroxide value of coconut oils can vary but I doubt if the oil used on it own can affect hair colour very much.

iris
April 3rd, 2008, 12:16 PM
How long does it take for henna to bind to hair, so treatments does not affect it?
On wool, it takes something like 48 hours, but human hair is not wool, and it depends on a bunch of factors. One is acidity (the binding goes faster in a more acidic environment), another is your hair itself - how many places your hair offers for the lawsone to bind to (lawsone binds only to specific places in the keratin molecule, the thiols - if you have more of those, the binding will be completed sooner).

So I really can't say. Some people get henna bleed for weeks after they henna, even after just washing and conditioning (no deep treatments), some get none. Some see henna come out with deep treatments months after they last hennaed, some never. It's an individual thing.

Iris

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 12:24 PM
I do not see too much red in the pictures in this link - cinnamon can add subtle red - but these honey and cinnamon results are impressive, IMO.

The person in these pictures is into natural hair products and methods and is growing her hair - See "About Me".

Honey lightening can be gradual and cinnamon lightening can be as well - together they appear to work very well and on very dark hair. Like other boosters added to a honey lightening treatment - cinnamon can help speed things up by adding its peroxide value to that of the honey. I am sure results will vary, as with all treatments.

So far, cinnamon lightening has not been reported to be drying. I recommend a weak vinegar rinse afterward, to help remove any treatment residue.

Honey and cinnamon hi-lights - with clickable pictures.
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/m...n-highlights!/ (http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/)

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 01:29 PM
POV - Peroxide value of cinnamon and other spices - Scroll down the page for more information on cassia and true cinnamon.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&o ts=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

waidz
April 3rd, 2008, 05:39 PM
Just a note to Sky. The first time I did my version of an SMT - I used only honey and conditioner. I didn't like it at all as my ends were also very crispy and dry. My hair was already damaged, but seemed more so following the treatment.

An important thing I realized after doing the honey/conditioner/EVOO treatment this time round, is that honey was/is actually good for my hair - so good that it made my healthy hair look even better, shiny and soft. So good in fact, that it exposed the damaged bits which were mostly on my ends - hence the contrast and feel between my healthy hair and my ends was more obvious.

It might not have been the case for you, but definately the case for me :)

There's no doubt you experienced crunchy ends, my question would be - why did it only affect your ends and not your lengths if your ends were healthy ? Would it not have affected other parts too ? I'm just curious so I can understand it more.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 05:43 PM
waidz

Thank you for the feedback. IMO it helps everyone by posting your results - it is always helpful to get another perspective.

Did you use a vinegar rinse following the treatment?

waidz
April 3rd, 2008, 05:45 PM
Hi Ktani
No I didn't. I did however shampoo twice following the treatment. Even though the lightening effects was slight, my hair has never been so soft and shiny. My mom was amazed at the shine as I'm still growing out alot of damage, and damaged hair is not supposed to shine lol!

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 05:49 PM
waidz

I am pleased that you are so happy with the condition of your hair and the shine as well as geting some lightening.

Either a vinegar rinse or shampooing can remove honey residue.

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 07:41 PM
Well, I said I was going to post pictures, but after spending about 10 minutes taking them, I noticed they don't look any different that the pictures from before my lightening treatments. :p Oh well, I'll post my recipes anyway.

Tomato Lightening Recipe:
6 oz. can tomato paste
1/2 cup honey
1/2 cup EVOO
a few ounces warm chamomile tea

I left it on for 3 hours, smelled much like pasta sauce, then washed out and did an ACV rinse. My hair smelled like vomit when everything was done. Once dry, it wasn't very bad though.

Coconut Cream Lightening Treatment:
1/3 cup Cream of Coconut
1/3 cup honey
1/3 cup conefree condish (contains protein)
2 tablespoons EVOO
I also dumped in some cinnamon, but didn't measure.

I left this on for 2 1/2 hours, then CO'd. Hair was very greasy. Smelled yummy!

Definitely no significant lightening, but I will definitely be experimenting some more!!:cool:

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 07:50 PM
DolphinPrincess

Honey lightening on multiple layers of henna and indigo can take time but it has been done.

You can leave the conditioner out of the honey coconut cream recipe if you like.

Since you want red - you can add cinnamon although it does not appear to add much red.
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks ktani, would there still be enough moisture if I left the condish out? I might do this and try leaving in on overnight.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 07:59 PM
DolphinPrincess

I just went to get this for you.

Viviane did a lot of honey coconut cream treatments to get to this point but it did help.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

You can add extra water to the recipe to make up for the water in the conditioner and add cinnamon - not too much though.

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 08:04 PM
Thank you very much, again! I still have hope!!

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 08:08 PM
DolphinPrincess

I just reread your recipe - it is not cream of coconut for the treatment - that has no water in it - coconut cream is liquid - in a can.

You have to fully dilute the honey - I am not surprised that your hair was greasy. Try the coconut cream and add extra water.

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 08:34 PM
Hmmm... Ok, well, that was why I had checked back before I bought it. All the store had was coconut milk or cream of coconut (It was liquid) but I'll check around other places.

I don't know how to make the link, but post 92 is where I had asked.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 08:42 PM
DolphinPrincess

I read that post wrong - sorry - but if it is liquid it is the right one.

Coconut milk can have additives too.

The company just calls it cream of coconut - I have seen cream of coconut in a box as a solid.

If you can try to find additive free coconut cream but what you have should be fine.

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 08:49 PM
No worries, it's ok. It ii liquid (came in a plastic squirt bottle) and water is in the ingredients list. Even if it doesn't work good for my hair, I love it in my chocolate milk and hot chocolate. :D:p I'll still keep looking, though.

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 08:59 PM
DolphinPrincess

What's in a name? Oy! I am not sure what you have now.

"Cream of coconut is a smooth, thick liquid ... from fresh coconuts."
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/CoconutMilk.htm

"Cream of coconut—Not the same as coconut cream, .... "
http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/kgk/2000/0600/kgk061000.html

Coconut cream concentrate - in a jar
http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/coconut_cream_concentrate.htm

Creamed coconut - in a box
http://www.drao-ofr.hia-iha.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/~rreid/potlucks/2/creamedcoconut_note.html

Coconut cream - explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_cream

Coconut cream - in a box
http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/coconut_cream.htm

Coconut cream - canned
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11061703/Canned_Coconut_Cream.html

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 09:41 PM
Ooh, lots of info, thanks!! So, it sounds like cream of coconut is pretty much the same as coconut cream, but with added sugar. Would you agree?? Hmmm.... Hard to say though...

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 09:43 PM
DolphinPrincess

I will simplify - Vivianne used canned, probably pure - no additives - she did not elaborate.

She let the can settle - no shaking - poured off the liquid for cooking and used the thicker paste - that is why I suggested adding water if necessary to dilute the honey.

You can also buy full fat coconut milk and do the same thing - you will just not get as much paste.

DolphinPrincess
April 3rd, 2008, 09:52 PM
Ok, thanks. I'm going shopping tomorrow, so I'll be able to look again, as well as get some spices. :D

ktani
April 3rd, 2008, 09:58 PM
DolphinPrincess

Good hunting!

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 10:01 AM
Cardamom is listed as having the highest POV or peroxide value here

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

I think nutmeg is not the greatest to experiment with.
Nutmeg safety
http://www.drugs.com/npp/nutmeg.html


Cardamom safety Page 154 - the link opens there - a very well referenced book, IMO - as is the one in the above link.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=cardamom+contraindications&source=web&ots=MKC8ue0wAF&sig=0dQ-CUw_GftW7QnKWidwF2Yfp1U&hl=en



Cassia cinnamomum information and safety can be found on pages 159 - 160

Page 159 - opens here

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=cardamom+contraindications&source=web&ots=MKC8ue0wAF&sig=0dQ-CUw_GftW7QnKWidwF2Yfp1U&hl=en#PPA159,M1

page 160 opens here

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=cardamom+contraindications&source=web&ots=MKC8ue0wAF&sig=0dQ-CUw_GftW7QnKWidwF2Yfp1U&hl=en#PPA160,M1

firebird
April 4th, 2008, 12:43 PM
After reading all the info here, I tried cinnamon in my honey mix. My mixture was roughly 60% honey, 20% conditioner (VO5 passionfruit), 20% olive oil and about a heaped tablespoon of cinnamon (I don't measure very accurately but that was basically it!). I knew as soon as I poured the oil that it was too much for my hair, as mine really doesn't like too much oil, but I used it anyway as I didn't want to waste the honey and cinnamon. I put it on wet hair and left it for 4 hours. When I first washed it out, it looked dull, as I knew it would because I used too much oil, but when I washed it again, it is lighter and no red tones. I was a bit scared of putting the brown mixture on my blonde hair, but I really didn't get any brown or red tones. I'll try next time without the oil so I can get a better picture of what it is like straight after washing out. I have pictures of my hair before and after 2 honey treatments (this and my previous 3hr of just honey/conditioner, I wanted to be able to compare so I knew it wasn't my imagination if it got lighter) and it's definitely lighter, it kind of looks like highlights as somehow some strands got much lighter than others, though I thought I applied it evenly :P If I can work out how to post pictures I'll post them here!

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 01:45 PM
firebird

Thank you for the feedback and posting your recipe in detail. I look forward to the pictures.

I am glad that you did not get the red or brown tones that you did not want but did get lightening. Hi-lights sound nice even if that is not what you intended.

I recommend not using too much EVOO in a mix.

How is the condition of your hair?

firebird
April 4th, 2008, 02:10 PM
ktani, yes I totally agree about not using too much EVOO! My hand slipped when I was pouring it :P

Having said that though, when I have done honey before (without oil), the last 2 inches of my hair have felt dry. I'm not blaming this on the honey at all, first because my ends get dry anyway and second because I slather the honey on my new growth and hardly put any on the ends at all, as I am trying to lighten my new growth to blend better with my dyed-lighter ends.
Immediately when I washed the honey/cinnamon/oil out of my hair, it felt like there was an oily residue. Now that I have washed it again, it actually feels great - the ends aren't dry at all and it's glossy without being oily. It feels very smooth and moisturized. There is definitely no damage from using the honey/cinnamon. Now I've washed twice, my hair actually looks and feels better than when I didn't use EVOO in the mixture, but the initial oilyness was annoying. I do like the 'high-lights' effect, I just thought it was weird that it wasn't more uniform since I thought I applied it all over :)

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 02:30 PM
firebird

I guess it is all about interpretation and semantics.

Honey can leave a residue - that has resulted on occassion in dry ends - also sometimes called crispy, crunchy and fried ends.

Crispy/crunchy has also been used to describe the feeling of the hair's ends after oil use for some people.

It can be caused by residue or build-up as well.

Residue can be removed one of 3 ways - for oil - clarifying, for honey - shampooing or a vinegar rinse.

I do not consider that result damage.

I believe, since that feeling/result has not been reported as such regarding honey lightening, that others do not either, except once - the result in that case was attributed to the peroxide in honey. The hair was washed with water only after the treatment, which would not remove residue.

You can still use some EVOO in your mix, just a lot less.

I am glad to read that your hair feels so good. The dyed part of your hair would be more porous IMO, and lighten more from the peroxide.

It may be that honey residue, mixed with some conditioner ingredients, becomes that much worse as to cause the drying effect. It may also be caused by how well the honey is diluted, which if it is not, would allow more honey residue to be deposited on the hair.

Dryness does not happen for everyone who has reported using only honey and conditioner or honey alone, diluted well with water and sprayed on the hair.

Viviane reported using honey straight, as a leave-in on damp hair - the tiniest amount - and had no problems with it. It was no doubt distributed well enough that residue was not an issue but she also washed her hair frequently.

Viviane on honey as a leave-in and more - the links no longer works in that form
"Besides, if you dampen your hair out a bit and then add a pearl size amount of honey to your palms, rub vigorously and then slide your palms to hair and comb, it´s not sticky at all. It just keeps it all in place. Sticky happens with too much of the good stuff."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158943&postcount=1102

"But just because I want to be as thorough as possible I still apply it on washed hair. Besides it provides my hair with insane shine."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1194409&postcount=1137

"Lightening with honey is time consuming but it also is natural and I feel the condition of my hair is absolutely wonderful!"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1193590&postcount=1133

More on Viviane's routine
"I think it helps that I wash these days daily. So every day and 24 / seven there is honey in my hair in one form or another, usually in layers too."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158906&postcount=1098

firebird
April 4th, 2008, 04:08 PM
ktani, thank you for your reply. I think I see what you mean about the ends, I was just not attributing it the honey as sometimes they will go from fine before I wash (just with shampoo, no honey involved) to dry after, so it's hard for me to tell what is the effect of the honey exactly, as dryness of the ends seems to happen to me randomly even when I haven't used honey and have shampooed out any residue from the last honey. I can see how it may be the honey which is causing it though, thank you for the extra info :) I hadn't realized that the dyed part would be more porous and so get lighter quicker, it's good to know that. Looking at my pictures, I think you are right.

Before (actually after a few treatments, I wish I'd taken a true before picture with virgin regrowth):


After 2 honey treatments:
1st - 3 hours honey and conditioner, about 60:40 I think
2nd - 4 hours honey/cinnamon/EVOO as described in my previous post today


These pictures were taken in the same light. I hate how the difference between the new growth and dyed part makes it look oily, I promise it's not, I'd washed out the oily residue before I took the picture :(

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 04:13 PM
firebird

Hair can feel dry at times for a number of reasons, including the weather and humidity changes indoors, IMO.

Thank you so much for posting your pictures.

Your hair looks a lot lighter to me and beautiful - I love the colour - and not oily at all.

We are our own worst critics, lol.

It looks like the cinnamon, in addition to the EVOO, really boosted the honey's effect on your colour.

firebird
April 4th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Thank you ktani :) now I really know I am not imagining the lightening!! I'm going to keep doing honey treatments to try and make it blend even better, thanks again for all your work on this thread :)

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 04:23 PM
firebird

My pleasure and please post your continued results and pictures.

I learn something from everyone who posts here and sharing results helps everyone who reads this thread.

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 06:38 PM
firebird

I keep looking at your pictures - all I can say is Wow - that is some difference in colour!

Javadandy
April 4th, 2008, 06:53 PM
Firebird - Your lift is amazing! Would love to know after a few routine washes how your hair is feeling...I hope it is good.

ktani- you have provided me with a lot of helpful information. I am still reading.

I love this forum!! :D

I have some darkness I wish to lift a bit, after my last hendingo. The henna was old and so my hair came out very dark, nearly black. It was a 50:50 hendingo and it looks like I did a 20:80. Too bad. So I will read and plan and see what I can get at the grocery store this weekend. I will let you know if I find a recipe that works and how it all turns out.

Thanks guys.

Marian

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 07:01 PM
Hi Javadandy

Welcome to LHC and thank you - there is a lot in this thread to read and on all of the boards.

It looks as though certain spices, because of their high peroxide values, added to the honey lightening recipes can really provide an extra boost. Other boosters have worked well but cinnamon, the first spice to be tried, right now seems to be leading the pack of the boosters used in the past.

Enjoy reading and please post results if you try one of the honey lightening recipes.

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Ok

Let's brake this down.

We have the honey boosters reported to work well from the Honey threads - EVOO, coconut cream and tomato.

Spices with high peroxide values - cinnamon, cardamom, black pepper, turmeric, nutmeg.

Cinammon is the first to be tried and has been reported and shown in pictures here, to be quite successful in one treatment as a booster.

My pick for the next test - cardamom - perhaps mixed with cinnamon and EVOO.

Black pepper - irritant potential; turmeric - possible iffy safety record in quantity; nutmeg - I do not like the safety report on drugs.com.

Possible combinations

1. honey, tomato sauce, EVOO, cinnamon and cardamom.

2. honey, coconut cream, a bit of EVOO, cinnamon, cardamom

3. honey, conditioner, a bit of EVOO, cinnamon or cardamom.

I recommend patch tests and strand tests for the spices and not going overboard on the quantity of spice used.

Another reason I urge not going to excess with spice quantities - See "Cautions and Contraindications"
"Cinnamon bark... toxic .... in excess."
http://www.mdidea.com/products/new/new024.html

Many things can be toxic in excess - I am not sure how current that link is - new reasearch is being done all the time and I am not trying to scare anyone.

It is just better IMO, to exercise restraint with this whole thing in terms of quanties of spice used in a treatment.

wintersun99
April 4th, 2008, 09:35 PM
After reading all of the threads to current - I am now sitting here with a mixture of honey/conditioner/organic cinnamon/organic coconut milk (Thai Kitchen) brand.

My hair has been two-stepped henna+indigo, but the indigo has grown out enough at the roots and underneith the canopy to appear as lowlights in the back (yet still quite dark on the sides, about ears down) and henna only from ears up. I don't have much hope that this mixture will lighten the indigo (as nothing to date has) but it will be interesting to see what happens.

I've currently had the mixture on for about an hour and half, it is a bit drippy. I noticed that immediately after putting on my head, my scalp began feeling quite hot and tingly (I assume from the cinnamon) and I truly wondered if I would be able to keep the mix on for a few hours. However, that feeling has either toned way down, or I don't notice it anymore as it doesn't seem to bother me now. I will report back tomorrow with results, wish me luck!

ETA: Ktani, thank you so much for all of the research you (and others, of course) have put into (most especially the Honey thread) I have followed it from the beginning and really appreciate the links you have provided for further information and research. :)

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 09:40 PM
wintersun99

Of course I wish you luck.

Thank you for posting your recipe and I look forward to reading your results both for lightening and the condition of your hair.

Could you please share the quantities used in your recipe and the method - did you cover your hair with plastic? - that is essential to keep honey moist and the honey must also be well diluted in order to produce peroxide.

I am sorry to hear about the tingling but as you say - it has died down.

Cocont cream is somewhat stronger than coconut milk but coconut milk has been reported to be successful in a honey lightening treatment.

ETA: You are most welcome - and thank you.
I prefer to err on the side of caution and I never knowingly recommend anything harmful.
That is why I include the research - so people have information at hand and can make risk assessments more easily.

AnneAdeline
April 4th, 2008, 10:45 PM
I'm going to sleep with a honey treatment in my hair tonight. I'm thinking 2 parts honey to 1 part EVOO to 3 parts honey. (I admit, I just made that up. It's going to actually be me tossing in amounts.)

I'll try to get pictures after!

Oh, and if you guys want to know, I have done two henna applications over bleached/chemically dyed. This could get interesting.

Edit: I was very tired when I wrote this post. That is why the recipe doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :rolleyes:

ktani
April 4th, 2008, 10:48 PM
AnneAdeline

It is not necessary to sleep in a honey lightening treatment but to each their own.

I look forward to reading your results and thank you for posting your recipe.

I am a little confused with what you wrote - you have 2 and 3 parts honey?

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 11:55 AM
This is interesting, IMO.

"The ancient Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth ....
Applied topically, cardamom .... used as an insect repellent."
http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm

MeMyselfandI
April 5th, 2008, 12:09 PM
ktani,

I will try either 2 or 3 next week. I have cardamom I can use.

I was thinking coconut milk, EVOO, honey and cardamom. I may use conditioner for thickness.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 12:22 PM
MeMyselfandI

Cool!

Don't forget to go easy on the spice and have enough water in the mix to dilute the honey - too thick and you could have problems with the lightening you are trying to achieve.

ETA: Coconut cream is thicker than coconut milk.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Cardamom and cosmetics - See "Skincare"

"... used traditionally to treat areas of the body that have red-pigmentation."
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html)



Useful links, IMO

"Using Herbal Medicines"
http://www.plantcultures.org/themes/medicine_using_herbal_medicines.html


Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Safetyinformation/Generalsafetyinformationandadvice/Adviceandinformationforconsumers/Usingherbalmedicines/index.htm


European Herbal & Traditional Medicine Practitioners Association
http://www.ehpa.eu/index.html

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 04:29 PM
It looks as if cardamom's bleaching qualities have been used for many years by different cultures - intriguing!

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 06:16 PM
ktani, thank you for your reply. I think I see what you mean about the ends, I was just not attributing it the honey as sometimes they will go from fine before I wash (just with shampoo, no honey involved) to dry after, so it's hard for me to tell what is the effect of the honey exactly, as dryness of the ends seems to happen to me randomly even when I haven't used honey and have shampooed out any residue from the last honey. I can see how it may be the honey which is causing it though, thank you for the extra info :) I hadn't realized that the dyed part would be more porous and so get lighter quicker, it's good to know that. Looking at my pictures, I think you are right.

Before (actually after a few treatments, I wish I'd taken a true before picture with virgin regrowth):

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/baseline1.jpg

After 2 honey treatments:
1st - 3 hours honey and conditioner, about 60:40 I think
2nd - 4 hours honey/cinnamon/EVOO as described in my previous post today

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/2xhoney.jpg

These pictures were taken in the same light. I hate how the difference between the new growth and dyed part makes it look oily, I promise it's not, I'd washed out the oily residue before I took the picture :(

I wonder what cardamom added to this recipe would do - if this is the effect of one cinnamon, honey, EVOO, conditioner treatment?

DolphinPrincess
April 5th, 2008, 06:38 PM
Well, I'm sitting here with another treatment on my head. It is:

1/2 cup honey
1/2 cup cream of coconut
a drizzle of EVOO (the mix was too thick, so I added it to thin a little bit)
1 tablespoon cinnamon
1 tablespoon nutmeg
1 tablespoon cardamom
It smelled like spice cake batter! Well, looked like it too, I suppose!

It's been on my hair for 2 1/2 hours now, started out really drippy, but now its slowed down. I think I may go spritz some water on it. Or just wash it out, haven't decided yet. :D

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 06:42 PM
DolphinPrincess

I look forward to reading your results.

How does your scalp feel?

DolphinPrincess
April 5th, 2008, 06:49 PM
It feels pretty good. I forgot to say that I didn't put the mixture directly on my scalp (my last inch of roots has lightened up some, so I don't want it to get much lighter without the rest) My hands got slightly irritated when I first applied, but I think that was because of the grainy-ness, not the spices themselves. I have sensitive skin to texture, but not some much to anything else. Except bleach. :mad:

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 06:59 PM
DolphinPrincess

That is good to know.

Cinnamon is a known skin sensitizer but does not affect everyone.
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/cosmetic_dictionary.asp?id=8&letter=C

"Contact dermatitis ... reported after single exposure and repeated use of cinnamon.... See "Adverse Reactions"
http://www.drugs.com/npp/cinnamon.html

Scroll down to "Cassia-in industry" for more information on the oils
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

In more recent research - cinnamon fights human cancer cells
http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=1164

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Cinnamon and Coumarin - this is an excellent link, IMO.
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8487

DolphinPrincess
April 5th, 2008, 08:16 PM
I ended up leaving the mix in my hair for 3 1/2 hours, then rinsed well, CO'd, washed with a shampoo bar, and used an ACV rinse. I still have spices in my hair that wouldn't rinse out well, but that was to be expected. Will post results tomorrow. (hopefully)

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:19 PM
DolphinPrincess

You did use them all, lol.

I am very pleased that your skin was not negatively affected - how does your hair feel?

firebird
April 5th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Javadandy - after a few washes, my hair still feels great. It feels moisturised and the ends have felt fine, with no dryness, ever since I did the honey/EVOO/cinnamon. My hair definitely loves honey :)

ktani - Yes, I would love to find out what adding cardamon would do! I don't have any right now, but will try and get some.

I'm looking forward to reading about everyone else's results!

As well as doing the honey treatments, I have been using a honey rinse after I wash my hair. I currently just use shampoo, as since moving to Florida I haven't been able to find a conditioner which doesn't leave my hair weighed down and lank. Miraculously, it doesn't tangle at all with just shampooing every other day. Anyway, the honey rinse is about a cup of water with a small squeeze of honey, maybe a third of a teaspoon? I had to play with the quantity/concentration of honey as too much did make my ends crunchy, but now I have it down, it just makes my hair softer and more moisturised than just shampooing. I don't know if it's having any effects on lightening, since there is so little used, but I like how it leaves my hair feeling, so I'm happy to do it just for that and any lightening is a bonus. I got the idea from someone on LHC, but I'm afraid I can't remember who to give credit.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM
firebird

A honey rinse would not be on your hair long enough to have a lightening effect IMO.

Even if you left it in your hair, honey needs continuous moisture to keep producing peroxide - Florida humidity would not be enough, IMO.

I am glad that you found the right quantity of honey for your rinse to not have a residue problem - if that does happen - just wash your hair and that should take care of it.

Viviane used to spray honey diluted in water on her hair before she started to use it straight, as a leave-in. She posted about it in the original Honey thread.

JKRBeloved
April 5th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of what coloring effect honey might have on silver/gray/white hair? I've been using it in my conditioner mix, but am wondering if it might have a yellowing effect on whiter hair?

DolphinPrincess
April 5th, 2008, 08:39 PM
ktani-My hair always feels weird when wet, always has, even when I used cone poo and condish. No tangles though, the comb went through easily!

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:41 PM
JKRBeloved

There have been no reports I can recall, of honey depositing a colour of its own on hair, grey or otherwise.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:43 PM
DolphinPrincess

I am pleased for you to read that - so far - so good.

wintersun99
April 5th, 2008, 08:53 PM
I'm back to report, as well. My mix (at least this first time) does not appear to have lightened my hair, but it does appear that it may have moved the henna on my roots to more brown. Also, my hair has NEVER been more soft and conditioned! It really is amazing, much more so then honey/condish alone. Although it doesn't appear to lighten henna (and negative on the indigo too) I will still use this as a weekly deep condition, I will probably add a bit of EVOO, next time.

ETA: mix was:
Honey, Condish, Coconut Milk, Cinnamon

ETA2: proportions - sort of tossed together, I will do my best to guesstimate correctly...
Honey: 1 1/2 tablespoon
Coconut Milk: 1/4 cup
Cinnamon: 1 heaping tablespoon
Conditioner: maybe 1/2-3/4 cup???

Brand Names: I bought everything at Nature's...
Honey: Nature's Energy Honey
Coconut Milk: Thai Kitchen Organic
Cinnamon: Simply Organic
Conditioner: VO5 Extra Body with a squirt of Giovanni Deep Repair Re-constructor

ETA3: yes, it definitely appears that the mix did "something" different to the henna, it is significantly more brown. Now that I think about it, after initially rinsing this mix and drying my hair, the newest growth did appear more golden, I can only assume the henna re-oxidized over the night. Sooooo, it is worth continuing for the conditioning alone and any natural lightening will be a bonus.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 08:59 PM
wintersun99

It sounds as if something did happen with the colour on the roots.

Thank you for posting your results.

Could you post your recipe proportions?

I am glad to read that you are so pleased with the condition of your hair.

ktani
April 5th, 2008, 09:37 PM
wintersun99

Thank you for posting your recipe details and the product names.

I am glad to read that you are so pleased with the results over all.

Peroxide lightening doesn't usually result in henna reoxidizing from previous reports - please let me know if your colour continues to change bewteen honey lightening treatments.

Palms
April 6th, 2008, 03:36 AM
hi ktani!!

i tried honey again this weekend and thanks again ktani it is much better than all the chemical dyes..

i did put:
2 tbs honey diluted 50:50 in water
Yogurt almost equal to the honey
some coconut oil -to avoid the drying effect of yogurt..

i mixed them all and wrapped them all with nylon and left it for over 3 hours.

the result:
before : my hair was getting red as i am using different oils..
after : lighter color shade, and less reddish tone -perhaps i still need few more sessions!!!

i really loved the result though my hair felt a little bit dry at the ends -i think due to the yogurt :( i think i'm going to do it again and again

a small question: do you think sitting under the sun while applying any honey recipe will give better results?

oooops!! i have just remembered i should have applied it on wet hair!! i applied it on dry hair!!

ktani
April 6th, 2008, 06:38 AM
Palms

Thank you for your feedback, recipe and method.

Sunlight is not recommended for honey lightening and is not necessary.

Sorry to hear about the dryness.

A weak vinegar rinse should help that, even if it was the result of the yogurt.

You could try a bit of EVOO instead of coconut oil and coconut cream instead of yogurt.

Honey lightening treatments can work on dry hair as long as there is enough water in the mix - wet hair is recommended.

AnneAdeline
April 6th, 2008, 12:49 PM
ktani - Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that recipe. I think I meant to say "conditioner" instead of "honey" one of those times. :rolleyes:
I slept in it because I am terribly impatient. If I had put it on in the day, I would wash it off in just an hour.

So... I let the honey mix sit for around 8 hours. I can't tell if it lightened (I think it did, just a little bit) but it did make my hair incredibly soft and silky. I'll definitely try this again.

ktani
April 6th, 2008, 01:04 PM
AnneAdeline

No worries about the recipe - I edit all the time - spelling and added text mostly - no matter how hard I try to do it right the first time.

Thank you for the correction and for posting your results.

I am pleased for you that your hair is so soft and that you might have some lightening.

Spices are the latest honey boosters being tested - cinnamon being the first - and the results are IMO - very impressive.

If you do try a spice - I recommend going easy on the quantity - and patch test first for skin sensitivity and allergies.

wintersun99
April 6th, 2008, 02:17 PM
wintersun99
Thank you for posting your recipe details and the product names.
I am glad to read that you are so pleased with the results over all.
Peroxide lightening doesn't usually result in henna re oxidizing from previous reports - please let me know if your color continues to change between honey lightening treatments.

Hi ktani and thank you for the PM. I think I will have to subscribe to this thread to stay on top of it :)

I am doing a second mix this afternoon (since it is snowing and I'm staying home) and going forward I will probably use this mix once or twice a week. To be consistent, I will use the same mix without alteration and keep track of it in my journal. I will definitely measure the ingredients today, so that I have consistent proportions and I will take a picture in a month. In the meantime, I will be watching this thread daily. Cheers

ktani
April 6th, 2008, 02:25 PM
wintersun99

The thread is growing rapidly - I might just start a Honey II thread - the continuation - at some point in the future.

I am very curious about the colour changes you wrote about between the time you rinsed/washed off the treatment and the next day - please keep me informed how that goes.

I look forward to your continued results.

wintersun99
April 6th, 2008, 02:58 PM
ktani,
I used 30v peroxide on my henna+indigo hair, following the experiments of Shermie Girl and Iris. I was hoping that it would help to lighten my nearly black indigo'd parts. My re-growth, I had just been henna'ing, so approximately 3-4" did not have indigo on it. The 30v peroxide significantly lightened the henna'd part of the hair to light golden red, it did nothing for the indigo. Since that time, I had applied 2 henna glosses. So, after using this mix last night, I noticed that my roots (right after rinsing and drying) looked like they did post peroxide/pre-henna gloss. However, by the morning the roots had returned to a darker reddish-brown, hence my thought that the henna had re-oxidized. So, I will definitely continue to watch them as the month goes on.

I would suspect that with all of these people using various mixes it may certainly be time to do a "results" thread in the next month, or so :)

ktani
April 6th, 2008, 03:08 PM
wintersun99

Thank you for getting back to me on that in detail.

Honey lightening has not been reported to redarken on hennaed hair - iris had her hair redarken after trying honey lightening but was not sure what may have caused it.

I was also at a loss to understand it - honey was not necessarily considered to be the cause but it was curious and now it gets even more so.

I took another look at your recipe - I do not know why your results happened that way - very interesting.

Meli
April 7th, 2008, 11:16 AM
I apologize for this very long post. A few weeks ago, I asked about egg in honey lightening treatments and got some great advice about things to try. Unfortunately I have not had any success, but I thought I’d report back anyway. I have trouble with standing turbies for several hours, so I have not done any more treatment. However, I have played around with strand tests, to get a hint of how long I would need to leave the mix on my head to get a noticeable lightening.

I made three test strands from shed hair. All three were washed with diluted SLES ‘poo before the test. One was then put aside for comparision. I first tried the coconut cream recipe. Coconut cream is not available here so I used full fat coconut milk instead, mixed about 1:1 with the honey. I put the two remaining, damp and freshly washed, test strands in the mix and covered with plastic. Four hours later I removed the first strand. However, I saw no change so I went back and added some water to the mix to make sure the honey was enough diluted. I also left the second strand for nine hours instead of eight hours. Still no change.

Then I was thinking about the honey – this was the very cheapest brand available, and though other cheap brands are reported to work I thought perhaps this one had been heat processed somewhere along the way. Went to the store and bought a more expensive, local produced honey. I repeated the first test in detail, but none of the strands showed any lightening at all.

Third and last attempt: the more expensive honey, double the amount this time, first diluted in a small amount of water so I could see for sure that it was completely dissolved. Then I added coconut milk, cardamom and a small amount of EVOO. This time I washed the test strands without diluting the ‘poo, and left them for 4h and 9h as before. No change. Not even a hint of a change – and I have checked them in different light as well. All strands were marked so there is no way I could have mixed them up with each other. And I used the same test strands for all experiments – one of them has thus been in honey mixes for more than a day in total.

The conclusion: either my hair is very resistant to peroxide bleaching, or both honey brands has too low peroxide value to count with. I will not make any more attempt of honey lightening unless I would happen to come across some guaranteed raw honey. However, I will continue to use honey for its conditioning benefits. If I on a long term basis would get some lightening, fine, if not, that’s fine too. I’m quite happy with my hair colour (even though it’s somewhat darker and more to the dishwater blonde during winters – hence the honey experiments). And I’m sort of relieved too – this means that I will not have to leave the treatments on my head for more than an hour in the future.

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 11:27 AM
Meli

Thank you for your feedback and in such detail - your long post is excellent in its thoroughness IMO - no apology necessary.

I am sorry to read that you got no lightening but I am pleased for you that honey conditions your hair so well.

It seems to me, that in Europe, buying a honey that produces enough peroxide to make a difference in the treatments, appears to be more difficult.

Cheaper brands of honey, here in North America, have from reports, worked very well for honey lightening.

I do not think that it is your hair that has been the problem.

iris calculated from her information, in the original Honey thread, that there is approximately a 15% chance of buying honey that produces little to almost no peroxide and that is just based on the plant source of the honey.

It may be that here in North America, the plants are somehow treated or cultivated differently, or blends of plant sources - varieties of the same plant perhaps, are used as sources for honey - just a theory.

I know that one brand of honey, here in Canada, uses blends of floral sources for example, for their honey.

"White clover, alsike clover and the white and yellow sweet clovers ... important for honey production." See "It All Depends On Where The Bees Buzz"
http://www.billybee.com/en/infocentre/colourflavour.shtml

Meli
April 7th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Thank you, ktani!

It makes sense that European and American plants perhaps could be different and give honey with different peroxide values.

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Meli

That makes sense to me too.

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 02:23 PM
More on blended honey.

Canada

See last paragraph
"Most Canadian honey is graded and marketed as Canada No.1 White ... produced from white clover, canola and alfalfa. The lighter honey is often used to blend with darker honey..."
http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1184695493293&lang=e (http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1184695493293&lang=e)


U.S.

This is almost the same article as the one on the Billy Bee site but this site is American.
"While different types of honey are available, most honey, especially honey supplied in bulk, is blended ..."
http://www.honeyo.com/types.shtml

See "Processing Techniques" for information on blended and varietal honey.
http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/honey/types.asp


Europe

Ammended European lelislation on honey - date -2003
"blend of non-EC honeys' or 'blend of EC and non-EC honeys' are considered appropriate."
http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/ng.asp?id=47512-new-honey-rules

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Honey scandals - worldwide - date - 2004 - as if the honey source topic was not complicated enough.

Honey has been mislabelled in terms of the country of origin and one product labelled as honey is not considered to be honey.


"... adding to the turbulence in the global honey market - ultrafiltered or "UF" honey. First noticed in the US, it is honey with almost everything taken out, including the impurities.

.... a test by the board earlier this year, nine out of 69 samples taken from American supermarket shelves proved to be UF honey.

This product .... is, according to most honey experts, not honey at all.

UF, rather than contaminated honey, ... now the real threat to the purity of honey internationally.

" a lot of packers deny it, ... it could be used quite widely in the American food industry instead of the real thing."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1265467,00.html

Javadandy
April 7th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Well everyone, after reading all the info in this thread, I tried a honey, conditioner and coconut oil treatment on the hair. About 50/20/30. It was a little runny, I used a cheapy rosemary conditioner I bought a while back from Sam's Club.

So I am a chump - no before pictures. Sorry...:oops:
But I have to say - it did a great job of lifting henndigo build up. Original hair; med/dark brown with brassy highlights and some gray, after henna overload, all dark, dark brown and virtually no highlights were visible. Now - hair is still darkish brown but the color overall is less glazed and built up, and the highlights are very much improved. I asked the kids if the hair looked brighter, they confirmed this. (They are pretty strong critics, they don't sugar coat things)

Once again - thank you all. I am a believer. :toast: And Ktani, you gave me lot's of information to think about, which was really nice. The info about how peroxide works in these foods really helped me figure out the whole process.

The hair is good enough now that I can give it some time and see if it continues to fade. If I do another treatment, I will try to post pictures.

Marian

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Javadandy

Great news!

Thank you for posting your recipe and details and for your kind words.

Honey lightening has worked on henna and indigoed hair previously.

Your recipe is your own - a mix of several possible choices - as are the proportions - well done.

How is the condition of your hair?

And please continue to update on any colour changes even in between treatments.

ETA: No worries about the pictures - not everyone posts them but they are welcome.

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Bee Product Problems and Issues - date 2006 - See the first pdf
http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00555/00563/index.html?lang=de&download=M3wBUQCu/8ulmKDu36WenojQ1NTTjaX (http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00555/00563/index.html?lang=de&download=M3wBUQCu/8ulmKDu36WenojQ1NTTjaX)

They talk about testing honey for among other things - its peroxide value - briefly.

Admittedly - not the most helpful pdf but it is pretty, lol. What were they thinking?
Hardly an answer to the scandals or a proper explanation of much of anything, IMO.
Pretty pictures don't cut it for me.

Authenticating honey - date 2004 - mislabelling honey has been around for a while - the country of origin for "economic reasons" and also the plant source - See "Misdescription of botanical source" and "Misdescription of geographical origin". I came across this same article with a publishing date of 2003.
http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/ruoff_1.pdf

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Hydrogen peroxide activity - Canadian honey - good - date 2006
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjm/2006/00000052/00000012/art00013 (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjm/2006/00000052/00000012/art00013)


Hydrogen peroxide activity U.S. honey - darker coloured honeys - higher content - date 2001
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7K-43Y9MN5-6&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7568a8f9525c937b2776caeed8d09dff

ktani
April 7th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Ok

Putting together the last several posts on honey - there does indeed appear to be a better chance of getting a higher peroxide producing honey in North America than elsewhere, (except New Zealand and Australia IMO, where they produce and closley monitor their honey production and packedging - the UMF of Manuka honey, for example, is not guaranteed outside of New Zealand, if the honey is packedged elsewhere).

Tests on the peroxide values of North American honeys have indicated that the levels are good.

The UF honey could still be out there in the U.S. and other countries which can complicate matters - it is not considered by experts to be honey.

For the U.S., darker honeys seem to be a better option.

In Europe - new regulations are being or have been developed to deal with the huge importation of honey from sources where mislabelling of the country of origin has occurred. Mislabelled honey may or may not have low peroxide values - the quality of the honey is at issue. Honeys can be blended by suppliers. Plant sources alone have to be considered, I believe. Plant sources have also been mislabelled.

In North America - honey is produced here and can also be blended. Honeys mislabelled in terms of the country of origin have been imported here too.

ktani
April 8th, 2008, 11:11 AM
A viewpoint on ultra-filtered (UF) honey from a Canadian beekeeper - date - 2005
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2005/diary050105.htm


A description of ultra-filtered (UF) honey
"honey that has been diluted with gallons of water, heated up to a high temperature, passed through an ultra-fine ceramic or carbon filter, and then evaporated down to a syrup again. In the process, every trace ..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1265467,00.html


"Honey Industry Profile" - worldwide with statistics
http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Honey_Industry_Profile

ktani
April 8th, 2008, 11:38 AM
Honey 101 - A Technical Glossary by the American National Honey Board - just click on a letter and go.
http://www.honey.com/foodindustry/techspecs/techglossary.asp

Henna Sooq
April 8th, 2008, 11:47 AM
how deep, deep honey can be :) We personally use honey from Quebec, like I go to the flea market out in the boon docks where my mom goes camping during the summer and they really have all Quebec grown produce and products. Honey is always on my list. I just grab a big old tub of unpasteurized.

ktani
April 8th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Henna Sooq

I am sure that many honeys for sale are just fine but there appears to be a lot of honey out there for sale - worldwide - that is not the equal in quality.

From a culinary point of view - different tasting honeys could be an adventure.

For the purpose of a hair treatment - either conditioning or lightening - the honey may make the difference - just as different quality hennas can for natural hair and skin colouring.

It is not necessary IMO, to buy expensive or raw honey for a honey lightening treatment.

It is the plant source that determines the peroxide level of honey.

A blended honey, IMO would offer a better chance for a higher level and from all the the recent research I have done - I recommend buying a darker coloured honey for the honey lightening recipes (it needs to be diluted well in any case and there have been no reports of honey depositing its own colour on the hair) - pasteurized should be fine.

Ultra-filtered (UF) honey
"It's got a yellowish cast, and it's a little thicker than real honey, ... doesn't taste like regular honey either.
... honey that has been diluted with gallons of water, heated up to a high temperature, passed through an ultra-fine ceramic or carbon filter, and then evaporated down to a syrup again. In the process, every trace ..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1265467,00.html

IMO, UF honey would not have any peroxide value - however, because so much is removed from it, and the resulting product is not as I have said, considered to be honey by experts, I doubt very much that it would have any conditioning benefits at all either - certainly not compared to honey that has not been so processed.

mellie
April 10th, 2008, 07:42 AM
I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=9743

After one treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=9747

After another one:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=9753

My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

ktani
April 10th, 2008, 07:51 AM
mellie

Thank you for reposting your amazing pictures - your hair is so beautiful and your recipe and details.

I had forgotton how much lightening you had gotten.

Low afternoon sun IMO, would not add too much heat or light to negatively affect the the results and sure enough - it did not.

ETA: Your recipe is also innovative and interesting. I have noticed since then with your more recent posts, that you are very creative and successful with your approach to your hair in general.

waidz
April 10th, 2008, 07:57 AM
Mellie your hair looks gorgeous. I must say there is much more shine after the honey treatments - looks amazing !

nayver
April 10th, 2008, 11:27 AM
Hello girls! Ktani I have a question...I don´t live in the US so I cannot find any of the conditioners listed above...how can I find a good conditioner for my recipe?? Any suggestions for European residents????

mellie
April 10th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Thanks Ktani, you are very kind! :-)

ktani
April 10th, 2008, 11:47 AM
nayver

You have a number of options.

Here is an example of the ingredients of a V05 conditioner - it is not on the Preferred List but is close enough for you to get an idea of its lightness.
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304647&navAction=jump&navCount=0&skuid=sku3867951&id=prod3869102#ingredient

and the ingrent list for Hello Hydration, which has been reported to work well with honey in a treatment
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304646&navAction=jump&navCount=1&skuid=sku2431440&id=prod2431962#ingredient

You could try to find something similar where you are.

Or you could try coconut cream and honey with a bit of EVOO, a herbal combination like mellie tried - chamomile, mullein, a bit of lemon and honey, or tomato sauce, EVOO and honey.

ETA: The boosters so far are tomato sauce, EVOO, coconut cream - you can use coconut oil instead - it has been reported to work very well - just not too much of it or any oil in a recipe, and cinnamon - be careful with that - cinnamon can be an irritant. No reports so far on cardamom - another possible spice booster.

nayver
April 10th, 2008, 01:37 PM
Thanks Ktani!!! I already found a website where I can buy the herbs Mellie used in her recipe... After the treatment, I'll post pics with the results.
And Mellie...I didn´t understand the procedure :( How much water did you use?? Do I need boiling water? Like a tea? Sorry for this stupid questions, but it's my first time and I want to do it well... :)

ktani
April 10th, 2008, 01:40 PM
nayver

I look forward to reading your results.

And welcome to LHC.

mellie
April 10th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Hi Nayver!

Yes, use hot water like a tea, sorry I should have said that in my recipe! As for how much, I think it was just around 1 cup.

nayver
April 10th, 2008, 04:45 PM
Thank you Mellie...My hair is dark as yours so it's possible that I have the same results...You hair was beautiful, but after the honey is gorgeous.

:)

mellie
April 10th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Thank you Nayver! Looking forward to your results! :-)

ktani
April 10th, 2008, 06:00 PM
Encore!


I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:

http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/beforeamla.jpg

After one treatment:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honeylemon.jpg

After another one:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honey4.jpg

My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

Thanks mellie for the recipe details.

mellie
April 10th, 2008, 06:06 PM
Oh - and also, I don't know if it makes a difference, but I used Roman Chamomile, not German.

ktani
April 10th, 2008, 06:15 PM
mellie

Yes, it might IMO, you used Anthemis nobilis - Roman chamomile, I have used German chamomile - Matricaria recutita - which built-up on my hair. It did not lighten at the time - years ago.

Roman chamomile is traditionally used for hair lightening.

nayver
April 11th, 2008, 02:52 AM
Thanks Mellie and Ktani...Now I have all the ingredients, but I don´t know if I'd be able to get Alfalfa honey in Spain...hmmm I'll try first with the regular clover honey.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 07:01 AM
nayver

I recommend that you look for a darker coloured honey and a blend of plant sources - see what you can find - it does not need to be either raw or expensive.

nayver
April 11th, 2008, 07:23 AM
ktani thanks, I already ordered my ingredients and I chose a "mil flores" honey which means it's been taken from different plants and flowers...in the picture is pretty dark. Hope it works.

Anlbe
April 11th, 2008, 07:58 AM
I just accidentally did a honey treatment. SMT without heating the mixture and fell asleep in it.
It definitely lightened my hair which I don't mind but sadly it lightened the highlighted section of my hair much more than the virgin growth which has made my roots rather noticeable which I rather do mind. Oh well

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Anlbe

I am sorry to read that you got unintended lightening with honey.

Reports like yours got the Honey threads started to begin with.

How is the condition of your hair?

I suggest that you microwave the honey - you can do that separately - over 10 seconds under 1 minute next time, just to be sure that you destroy the enzyme that produces the peroxide.

You will avoid the SMT curds I keep reading about IMO, when the honey has cooled down and is added to the mixture, rather than heating the whole SMT mix at one time.

You might be able to darken your hi-lights with molasses - not a super dark one - mix it with a bit of oil and follow that with a vinegar rinse.

firebird
April 11th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Mellie, your hair looks wonderful! I am curious about the mullein - does that lighten too or did you add it for conditioning/something else? I never heard of using it on hair before.

I am doing another honey/cinnamon mix today, it's been on my hair nearly 3 hours now, I'll update with results later.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 09:37 AM
firebird

From what I have read, mullein flowers can yield a yellow dye and mullein also contains mucilage, which can build-up on hair but that depends on the content yielded by the plant. Mucilage is considered to be moisturizing to an extent as well as being reported to help provide slip to the hair.

Most plant seed oils can as I understand it have a peroxide value, but that varies.

I have read of mullein, Verbascum thapsus, being used for hair lightening.

I will try to find out more about it.

mellie may have more information.

ETA: here is the Wiki information See "Uses"
"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus

and here is the Plants For a Future database link, that also refers to its dye use, stating that to yield a yellow dye, the flowers must be boiled and that an infusion of the flowers can be used to dye hair a golden shade. See "Other Uses"
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbascum+thapsus

Mullein cautions - See "Other info"
http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellowalt/Verbascum_thaspus_page.html

Mullein is generally recognized as safe - See "Safety Issues"
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21821

firebird
April 11th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Thank you ktani, that's really interesting. Mullein sounds like a great addition to a lightening mixture. I'm going to look into where to get some. Thank you so much for all your research, it's really helpful!

I still have the mixture on my hair, today I used about 70% honey with 30% conditioner and about 2 tablespoons of cinnamon mixed in. It seemed a lot of cinnamon, but I was very careful not to get in on my skin and rinsed off well everywhere it went. I tried to avoid getting it on my scalp and didn't rub it in, my head feels fine with no burning/irritation. I only applied it to my new growth this time not the whole length to work on getting the new growth to blend better with the lighter length. I'll probably keep it on another hour or so.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 10:31 AM
ktani, thank you for your reply. I think I see what you mean about the ends, I was just not attributing it the honey as sometimes they will go from fine before I wash (just with shampoo, no honey involved) to dry after, so it's hard for me to tell what is the effect of the honey exactly, as dryness of the ends seems to happen to me randomly even when I haven't used honey and have shampooed out any residue from the last honey. I can see how it may be the honey which is causing it though, thank you for the extra info :) I hadn't realized that the dyed part would be more porous and so get lighter quicker, it's good to know that. Looking at my pictures, I think you are right.

Before (actually after a few treatments, I wish I'd taken a true before picture with virgin regrowth):

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/baseline1.jpg

After 2 honey treatments:
1st - 3 hours honey and conditioner, about 60:40 I think
2nd - 4 hours honey/cinnamon/EVOO as described in my previous post today

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/2xhoney.jpg

These pictures were taken in the same light. I hate how the difference between the new growth and dyed part makes it look oily, I promise it's not, I'd washed out the oily residue before I took the picture :(

firebird

Thank you for posting your new recipe and details.

I am very happy to read that you are not having irritation issues with the cinnamon.

Thank you also for your kind words.

Your results after only one honey lightening treatment containing cinammon were IMO, amazing.

I noticed this time, in the current treatment still on your hair, that you left out the EVOO - it is a honey lightening booster as well - from my research - the plant oil with the highest peroxide value.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 10:36 AM
After reading all the info here, I tried cinnamon in my honey mix. My mixture was roughly 60% honey, 20% conditioner (VO5 passionfruit), 20% olive oil and about a heaped tablespoon of cinnamon (I don't measure very accurately but that was basically it!). I knew as soon as I poured the oil that it was too much for my hair, as mine really doesn't like too much oil, but I used it anyway as I didn't want to waste the honey and cinnamon. I put it on wet hair and left it for 4 hours. When I first washed it out, it looked dull, as I knew it would because I used too much oil, but when I washed it again, it is lighter and no red tones. I was a bit scared of putting the brown mixture on my blonde hair, but I really didn't get any brown or red tones. I'll try next time without the oil so I can get a better picture of what it is like straight after washing out. I have pictures of my hair before and after 2 honey treatments (this and my previous 3hr of just honey/conditioner, I wanted to be able to compare so I knew it wasn't my imagination if it got lighter) and it's definitely lighter, it kind of looks like highlights as somehow some strands got much lighter than others, though I thought I applied it evenly :P If I can work out how to post pictures I'll post them here!

firebird

I am reposting this to show your original honey cinnamon recipe details. This thread is getting so long that I had to search for it and your pictures.

Anlbe
April 11th, 2008, 10:36 AM
Hi ktani,

The condition of my hair is really good, better than normal. In particular it feels very silky. Normally after SMT I still have to use quite alot of oil but this time I didn't need it even though I had to rinse really vigorously (I curdled) which normal dries my hair. So I'm very happy with the condition, if only it had lightened my roots the same degree as the rest I would have been really happy with the colour too! Maybe I'll try the same mixture just on my roots and see if I can even the colour out.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Hi ktani,

The condition of my hair is really good, better than normal. In particular it feels very silky. Normally after SMT I still have to use quite alot of oil but this time I didn't need it even though I had to rinse really vigorously (I curdled) which normal dries my hair. So I'm very happy with the condition, if only it had lightened my roots the same degree as the rest I would have been really happy with the colour too! Maybe I'll try the same mixture just on my roots and see if I can even the colour out.

Anlbe

I am glad to read that you hair feels so good.

There have been reports that the conditioning effects of microwaved honey are not as good as those from honey that has not been microwaved.

I am confused by your "curdled" reference - do you mean that the conditioner can curdle even without it being heated?

Yes, repeating the mixture only on your roots sounds like a better idea IMO, than trying to darken your hi-lights.

Anlbe
April 11th, 2008, 11:24 AM
Yes it curdled with no heat. I made my mixture and everything was going fine then I decided to add a bit more conditioner and suddenly it curdled - I guess I tipped the acid balance...

I'll try the honey on roots thing next week ( I only wash my hair once every 7-10 days in the winter) and see what that does, I don't want to stress out the highlighted section of my hair, its already been through so much.