Ok I'm happy to do that, but I usually only use 3 dessert spoonfulls (about 35g) honey and 4 times as much water. Mixing that much cardamon in makes it really thick.

Do you think I'm using enough honey? My hair is only shoulder length.

kimki

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says

1/8 cup or 10 grams.

kimki

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says

1/8 cup or 10 grams.

Well I'm using enough honey, I will give it a go mixing in 2 tablespoons then.

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says 1/8 cup or 10 grams.

Hey, I'm not sure I knew this before, learn something new everyday (or hour) around here. :p

kimki

I suggest that if you do - if you can - that you use 1/4 cup honey and increase the liquid - use chamomile tea - to help with any irritation - 1 cup.

I did my 3rd honey treatment today 1/4 cup of honey, 1 cup of chamomile tea, 1 tab cinnamon, 1 tab EVOO and left for over an hour and a 1/2. I don't see a change in colour , but when I asked husband if it looks lighter than when I first had it coloured he said yes it does. He thinks it is just probably fading from washing though. It's hard to say really with hair this colour , he said it's not as black as it was looking when you first coloured it :shrug:
I had a lot of trouble getting the cinnamon out which I didn't happen when I used conditioner in fact the cinnamon mixed well in the conditioner but not well in the water mix , it was lumpy . I got out of the shower to discover bits still through out my hair, so I combed it and poured more water on it and combed again . A real pain it was.
I was wondering if I continued with the chamomile tea if I could add the cinnamon to the hot water while it's brewing to see if that would make it mix in better. I don't know whether it would or whether that would affect how the cinnamon works as a lightening agent. ? :confused:
I can't get cardamon I looked in the supermarket and in a health food shop and there was none and I bought a couple of bags of cinnamon. :rolleyes:

I did my 3rd honey treatment today 1/4 cup of honey, 1 cup of chamomile tea, 1 tab cinnamon, 1 tab EVOO and left for over an hour and a 1/2. I don't see a change in colour , but when I asked husband if it looks lighter than when I first had it coloured he said yes it does. He thinks it is just probably fading from washing though. It's hard to say really with hair this colour , he said it's not as black as it was looking when you first coloured it :shrug:
I had a lot of trouble getting the cinnamon out which I didn't happen when I used conditioner in fact the cinnamon mixed well in the conditioner but not well in the water mix , it was lumpy . I got out of the shower to discover bits still through out my hair, so I combed it and poured more water on it and combed again . A real pain it was.
I was wondering if I continued with the chamomile tea if I could add the cinnamon to the hot water while it's brewing to see if that would make it mix in better. I don't know whether it would or whether that would affect how the cinnamon works as a lightening agent. ? :confused:
I can't get cardamon I looked in the supermarket and in a health food shop and there was none and I bought a couple of bags of cinnamon. :rolleyes:

Alley Cat

Thank you for the update.

It sounds as if your colour is changing somewhat.

You could try a different honey - a dark coloured honey blend.

The chamomile tea must be cooled to room temperature before addiing the honey or the cinnamon and EVOO - high heat negatively affects the peroxide.

As an experiment just now, I added cinnamon to cold water, and stirred with a spoon - yes it was a bit lumpy - then I added honey - and stirred again - no lumps - the solution was smooth.

I do not know what a "tab" is.

I did not measure the cinnamon or honey - but I used enough of both to get a strong cinnamon honey - solution - and it turned out smooth.

I suggest adding the honey first to room temperature tea only - then the cinnamon - stir well - then add the EVOO.

You could try to get ground cardamom at Indian or Middle Eastern food stores - it is used in Middle Eastern and Indian food.

I recommend patch testing it first.

Being a long thread, I just scummed through, reading posts here and there, thinking that would be enough to try it out by myself. Like, how hard can it be? But somehow I missed the part about irritation from cinnamon... :hmm:

Made a blend of a very light conditioner, honey, EVOO and cinnamon, applied most of it to the roots, massaged it in (they are much darker then the rest of the hair) and applying the rest to the lenghts. Put on a plastic cap and went to rinse off what had dripped on my shoulders and back. Got a glance of my shoulder and OMG... shudder: It was evil red! The other just the same. Then I felt a burning on the forehead and the ears, and knowing that my scalp is more sensitive than the rest of my skin, I dragged the cap of in panic and rinsed for like a quarter, scratching to get all the cinnamon out.

It never occured to me to test before using it. I've never been sensitive more than you should be for anything. Glad to say, one hour later, the redness is almost gone. :) I'm even thinking about redoing it right away, if I can find any cardamom in our small kitchen. :)

wintersun99

I need to up-date the thread very soon - I am glad that information helped.

Being a long thread, I just scummed through, reading posts here and there, thinking that would be enough to try it out by myself. Like, how hard can it be? But somehow I missed the part about irritation from cinnamon... :hmm:

Made a blend of a very light conditioner, honey, EVOO and cinnamon, applied most of it to the roots, massaged it in (they are much darker then the rest of the hair) and applying the rest to the lenghts. Put on a plastic cap and went to rinse off what had dripped on my shoulders and back. Got a glance of my shoulder and OMG... shudder: It was evil red! The other just the same. Then I felt a burning on the forehead and the ears, and knowing that my scalp is more sensitive than the rest of my skin, I dragged the cap of in panic and rinsed for like a quarter, scratching to get all the cinnamon out.

It never occured to me to test before using it. I've never been sensitive more than you should be for anything. Glad to say, one hour later, the redness is almost gone. :) I'm even thinking about redoing it right away, if I can find any cardamom in our small kitchen. :)

SolSara

Thank you for posting what happend to you and I am very relieved to read that your cinnamon irritation, like that of others, was a temporary experience.

What happened to you illustrates 3 things.

1. Patch test first - any ingredient you are not familiar with using on your scalp or skin.

2. Conditioner - based on reports, cannot protect one from an ingredient being irritating, if enough of the ingredient is used and or one is sensitive to it.

3. Please ask questions if you are unsure of what to do or use or just want to check it out before you try a honey lightening treatment - I will always respond and help out - and the method and details are important to help get the best results possible.

Try using chamomile tea a your water base - I cup cooled to room temperature chamomile tea to 1/4 cup of honey. The chamomile tea is no guarantee but it has been reported to help counter spice irritation with the treatments and it has a traditional history of use to counter irritation.

You can add cinnamon - about 1.5-2 tablespoon to the honey and tea first, then add in the EVOO.

I suggest ground cardamom for you - after patch testing it, because of your reaction to the cinnamon.

Succesful application techniques include using a tint or blush brush to apply the liquid.

Conditioner is no longer recommended - it can be contain problematic ingredients and IMO, reduces the optimal dilution needed for the treatments.

A honey lightening treatment up-date

Patch test first, any ingredient that you are unfamiliar with using on your scalp and skin.

There is now a successful honeys list - here it is - it is constantly updated.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856

If you live where these honeys are not available - try a dark coloured, inexpensive honey blend. Pasteurizing does not affect the honey peroxide level.


1. The recommended dilution is 4 parts room temperature only water to 1 part honey. Heat (except body heat) negatively affects peroxide.The minimum amount of honey to be used is 1/8 th cup or 10 grams.

2. Conditioner is not recommended as part of the dilution - herbal tea is (as long as it is a tea that contains no Vitamin C) - cooled to room temperature only before using - Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis) is preferable but German chamomile (Matricaria chamomilla) will do just fine - chamomile helps counter irritation. Also recommended - Mellie’s Mix - 1 cup water (made into tea) with 1 tablespoon each of Roman chamomile, mullein to 1/4 cup of honey.

3. Mix the honey and the room temperature water or tea first, before adding spice or oil - it helps make the solution smoother.

4. The peroxide recipe boosters are; extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil, ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, . My spice pick - cardamom - that will depend on your sensitivity.

5. Recommended application techniques include using a tint or blush brush.

6. The hair should be covered with plastic during the 1 hour treatment. An exception to this can be made if applying the treatment to a small roots only area - on dry hair - in this case - misting the area during the hour with water to keep it wet, is necessary.

ETA: 7. Do not apply heat to any of the peroxide containing ingredients of the treatment, at any point in the recipe preparation. Body heat, once the treatment is on the hair and covered, is the only heat recommended - except for making the herbal tea - which is only to be used with the other ingredients when cooled to room temperature and not before.

So I tried this again using a half of a cup of honey to two cups of water.

I boiled a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a half of teaspoon of ground clove in the water first and then let it get room temperature and strained it.

After it was room temp & strained, I mixed it with the honey and 1/4 cup of olive oil.

It was way too much for my hair so I know to half everything next time and that will be enough.

(I made so much because I wasn't sure if less would be enough for some reason)

It left my hair really soft and shiney & it looks a little lighter to me but nothing dramatic. It kind of brings out natural, very subtle highlights.

I used the same honey as last time.

So I tried this again using a half of a cup of honey to two cups of water.

I boiled a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a half of teaspoon of ground clove in the water first and then let it get room temperature and strained it.

After it was room temp & strained, I mixed it with the honey and 1/4 cup of olive oil.

It was way too much for my hair so I know to half everything next time and that will be enough.

(I made so much because I wasn't sure if less would be enough for some reason)

It left my hair really soft and shiney & it looks a little lighter to me but nothing dramatic. It kind of brings out natural, very subtle highlights.

I used the same honey as last time.

Gabriel

Thank you for your update and recipe.

Your dilution was right on the mark.

However - by boiling the cinnamon - you destroyed the peroxide in it - making it useless to the recipe.

High heat negatively affects hydrogen peroxide. Do not use any heat (except body heat when the treatment is on your hair and covered) with the peroxide ingredients.

Ground cloves, while aromatic, contain very little peroxide and clove is an irritant - by boiling both it and the cinnamon - they added nothing to the recipe IMO.

Here is information I posted previously, in addition to other research I have read and posted that stated no external heat is to be used with honey to not affect its peroxide level - this IMO, applies to the whole honey lightening treatment - just body heat is recommended, which has been reported in the honey and wound research, to not affect the enzyme that produces hydrogen peroxide in honey or the peroxide itself.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat, will usually decompose into water and oxygen..."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

Pasteurization does not use a high enough heat for a long enough period of time to affect the crucial enzyme in honey.

Pasteurized honey has worked very well, based on reports, for honey lightening.

It is about the degree of heat and the time applied. If what you had done did not affect the cinnamon IMO, your results would have been better.

To be on the safe side of the heat issue and peroxide - avoid it except as I have said, for body heat.

I am glad that you got some lightening from the honey.

I've just done firebird's honey-cassia-EVOO-cinnamon combo on my hair and am waiting for it to dry to see the results. I took a hair photo right before my treatment and will take another photo tomorrow when it's dry. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it works for me; it looks good so far while wet. :)

morgwn

Thank you for your report.

As long as you did not add orange juice to the cassia and let it dye release and added it straight to the honey lightening treatment (pre-mixed with water just before adding it would be ok) and your dilution was 4 parts water or chamomile tea in this case (cooled first before using it) to 1 part honey, you should be fine.

I look forward to your results and pictures.

I will be updating this thread more often to make it easier to catch up on the latest news, research and reports.

I realize that this thread is very long - the updates should help and I will always answer any questions to the best of my ability, based both on the continued research and the most current reported results, as well as the reported results from the previous Honey threads.

Alley Cat

Thank you for the update.

It sounds as if your colour is changing somewhat.

You could try a different honey - a dark coloured honey blend.

The chamomile tea must be cooled to room temperature before addiing the honey or the cinnamon and EVOO - high heat negatively affects the peroxide.

As an experiment just now, I added cinnamon to cold water, and stirred with a spoon - yes it was a bit lumpy - then I added honey - and stirred again - no lumps - the solution was smooth.

I do not know what a "tab" is.

I did not measure the cinnamon or honey - but I used enough of both to get a strong cinnamon honey - solution - and it turned out smooth.

I suggest adding the honey first to room temperature tea only - then the cinnamon - stir well - then add the EVOO.

You could try to get ground cardamom at Indian or Middle Eastern food stores - it is used in Middle Eastern and Indian food.

I recommend patch testing it first.
Thank you for your reply and advice. First of all tab is my abbreviation for tablespoon sorry about that:o
What you mentioned about how to add the cinnamon I will try next time I added honey and evoo mix and stirred them together and then added the cinnamon then poured the chamomile tea over that.
So from your advice you mix the honey and the water first before adding spice then the oil. I will try that next time. :)
Thanks for the information on where to get cardamon , I might look for it or stick with cinnamon seeing as I have heaps. :shrug:

Oh yes forgot to mention this is the second brand of honey I have tried and it is much darker than the last one, both of them are cheap home brand types from my local supermarkets but the second one is a lot darker. :)

Alley Cat

You can always cook and or bake with the cinnamon.

However there have been coumarin warnings with cinnamon too.

Your scalp comfort is important IMO - see how it goes.

Please update on the differences if any between the honeys.

This information is right on the mark in terms of cassia cinnamon, cosmetics containing coumarin and this thread.

"The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake

natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. This plant ingredient is found in woodruff and sweet clover and there are higher levels in cassia cinnamon, too. ... synthetically produced coumarin is added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment (BfR) has evaluated the analytical results .... in order to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. The result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

An encore of this post.

and links to these 2 on ingesting coumarin in cinnamon and food.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=81337&postcount=419

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=81414&postcount=420

Alley Cat

You can always cook and or bake with the cinnamon.

However there have been coumarin warnings with cinnamon too.

Your scalp comfort is important IMO - see how it goes.

Please update on the differences if any between the honeys.
Yes I could cook with it, I think the cinnamon I got would be fine it came from the health food shop. I am not really sure if I can tell the difference in the honey as I can really see much of a change like I said above, though also as I said hubbie says it's lighter than when first coloured. I did take a picture so eventually I may take another one to see if it has lightened but I might wait for some more treatments as I don't know if any difference will show up as yet. :shrug:
Another thing I used the lighter honey with conditioner so that would be a variable too. :)

Alley Cat

First - thank you for clearing up what you meant by tab.

Yes - conditioner can be an important variable - it can contain problematic ingredients and depending on the water content - interfere with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

As I have said, diluted enough to to come close to the dilution - it has been reported to yield better results in the honey lightening recipes that way - it is useless IMO, for conditioning - so it is better replaced with chamomile tea for example which can and has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation.

Darker honeys were reported in honey research I read, to have higher peroxide values if they were blends of honeys.

Alley Cat

First - thank you for clearing up what you meant by tab.

Yes - conditioner can be an important variable - it can contain problematic ingredients and depending on the water content - interfere with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

As I have said, diluted enough to to come close to the dilution - it has been reported to yield better results in the honey lightening recipes that way - it is useless IMO, for conditioning - so it is better replaced with chamomile tea for example which can and has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation.

Darker honeys were reported in honey research I read, to have higher peroxide values if they were blends of honeys.
Thanks and your welcome about the tab. :)

Alley Cat

Is tab an Australian/Tasmanian expression or one all of your own?

I think it is very cool.

hi!
i had 2 more honey treatments this month, the first with VO5 fade defy conditioner and diluted honey, and the other with chamomile tea, olive oil and cardamom.
the first method my hair felt and smelt great and i could see actual lightened color.. i left it for over 5 hours..
the second way, i applied it on dry hair, i added 2 tbs cardamom to 2 cups chamomile tea and about 2 tbs olive oil -not vergin - i boiled the chamomile tea and probably the cardamom for a moment.. my hair felt great i could see much less reddish tone and a little lightening effect-but not as light as the previous method.. i covered it and kept it for over 2 hours .. i know i did smth wrong with the cardamom! i just didn't understand how to use it!!! can you explain exactly how to use it?!! i have just understood that it is not good to boil it, so how will we benefit from it? shall i let's say soak it in the chamomile tea or what? and finally is it a permanent or temporal result?

Alley Cat

Is tab an Australian/Tasmanian expression or one all of your own?

I think it is very cool.

Thanks. You know I have been writing that for so long that I am not sure where I learned it , I assume it's widespread over here. :shrug:

hi!
i had 2 more honey treatments this month, the first with VO5 fade defy conditioner and diluted honey, and the other with chamomile tea, olive oil and cardamom.
the first method my hair felt and smelt great and i could see actual lightened color.. i left it for over 5 hours..
the second way, i applied it on dry hair, i added 2 tbs cardamom to 2 cups chamomile tea and about 2 tbs olive oil -not vergin - i boiled the chamomile tea and probably the cardamom for a moment.. my hair felt great i could see much less reddish tone and a little lightening effect-but not as light as the previous method.. i covered it and kept it for over 2 hours .. i know i did smth wrong with the cardamom! i just didn't understand how to use it!!! can you explain exactly how to use it?!! i have just understood that it is not good to boil it, so how will we benefit from it? shall i let's say soak it in the chamomile tea or what? and finally is it a permanent or temporal result?

Palms

I am glad to read that the honey and conditioner worked for you.

That means that your honey is fine.

For the tea version - it is very simple.

Brew the tea first - 1 cup for example - and let it cool to room temperature.

When the tea has cooled - not before - you can add the honey - in this case - 1/4 cup and 1-2 talblespoons of cardamom and about 1 tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil.

Mix it all together well and that is the preparation - done.

Apply the mix with a tint or blush brush - cover your hair and let the treatment stay on your hair for 1 hour or a bit more - that is all you should need.

The dilution is 4 parts water or tea to 1 part honey.

The minimum amount of honey to be used is 1/8th cup - so you will need 1/2 cup tea to 1/8th cup honey should you want to use less. The spice and oil amount - you sould not need more cardamom IMO than 2 tablespoons - the oil 1 tablespoon.

With cardamom like cinnamon - caution is advised at first - that is why I suggest patch testing.

EVOO can be difficult to wash out of the hair - for that - try 1 tablespoon only and see.

Nothing should be added to the tea until it has completely cooled.

The water version - room temperature water only - same amounts.

Alley Cat

Thanks

I am not sure where all of the expression I use come from - I am constantly looking them up though - out of curiosity - since I have used them here often and this is an international forum - it has been an interesting education for me.

Alley Cat

Thanks

I am not sure where all of the expression I use come from - I am constantly looking them up though - out of curiosity - since I have used them here often and this is an international forum - it has been an interesting education for me.
It's funny isn't it half the time we have no idea where we picked up some of the things we say ? Some may even come from within our own family. I have picked up some little sayings from my kids that I call "kids speak" as I wouldn't say them outside the family. :) People might look at me weirdly if I did. :silly:

I have always said - no external heat with honey lightening.

That came from the research on honey and heat having a negative effect on the enzyme that produces the hydrogen peroxide and the peroxide itself.

I had no idea just how fragile hydrogen peroxide itself is to heat until recently.

It never occured to me that replacing the conditioner with tea would confuse people on the no heat issue.

I apologize for not making that more clear.

When the link that made the 4 parts water to 1 part honey clear to me stated that the water must not be heated for the honey - I did not think that it was necessary to state that - I thought that it was understood.

Just think of the herbal tea or water as replacing conditioner and use it at room temperature only before adding the rest of the recipe ingredients.

Alley Cat

It is funny - kids pick up expressions from their books, TV, movies and their friends - often without having a clue what they mean - at first - I bet many of the expressions they use are out there somewhere.

Alley Cat

It is funny - kids pick up expressions from their books, TV, movies and their friends - often without having a clue what they mean - at first - I bet many of the expressions they use are out there somewhere.

Some of them , maybe not the more babyish ones. My kids are 5 and 7. ;)

Alley Cat

True - that is their attempt to grasp the language - it is fun though - they are creating and have created their own version.

The spice boosters and the oils are ingredients with extra peroxide to boost honey lightening.

I do not recommend that any heat be applied to any peroxide containing ingredients at any point - you are working against yourself with the recipes when you do that IMO, and from the reported results.

The herbal tea or water is what dilutes the honey, is the base of the recipe, and should always be room temperature, before the peroxide containing ingredients are added to it.

Boiled water is necessary for the herbs like chamomile and mullein - to extract from them what you need quickly. I have also read that very hot water works too.

Regardless of the herbal contributions - the herbs are not peroxide producing ingredients and if they were - boiled or very hot water would take care of that in any case by reducing the amount or destroying it.

If you want to go heat free for the herbal tea - steep the herbs - not the spices in room temperature water overnight - same proportions - 1 tablespoon each to 1 cup or 1/2 tablespoon each to 1/2 cup of water.

You would have to top up the water in the morning to compensate for evaporation unless you covered the container - which is preferable with flower and leaf herbs.

It is another method of extracting constituents from herbs that I have read about from a reliable source IMO - but takes much longer than using boiled or very hot water.

Most important to me is the fact that there is scientific research that supports the results reported in all of the Honey threads to date, that honey lightening is not damaging to hair.

The recipe ingredients that contain peroxide, starting with honey, all contain constituents that have been clinically shown to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage. IMO, as I have said - this extends to hair.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123493&postcount=969

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123822&postcount=974

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124613&postcount=991



From past honey lightening recipes, tomato, a peroxide booster now not recommended because of its Vitamin C content - also contains these protective constituents.

“Tomatoes and tomato-based products contained primarily quercetin …. and…. myricetin.”
http://www.us.edu.pl/uniwersytet/jednostki/wydzialy/chemia/acta/ac13/zrodla/16_AC13.pdf

Hibiscus or roselle, also now not recommended for honey lightening because of Vitamin C - contains quercetin.

“…. flowers of Roselle …. contain quercetin …. “
http://www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/html/r/roselle.htm



While the amounts of these constituents may vary and the honey lightening peroxide containing ingredients do not necessarily contain all of the protective constituents named in the research, the reported results in the Honey threads have been consistent - honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.

This is not specific to honey lightening but it is by the same authors on the specific flavonoids that are also found in honey, the spices and EVOO.

"Experimental evidence suggests .... most herbs and spices possess .... wide range of biological and pharmacological activities .... may protect tissues against H2O2-induced damage."
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1 (http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1)

It looks like my theory is not only not original - it is being researched vigorously from a different approach. The plants in this study do not produce hydrogen peroxide except in minimal amounts.

Various herbal teas and their hydrogen peroxide production are discussed here.

"Herbal teas .... popular because .... antioxidative activity. .... antioxidative activity comes mainly from polyphenols, Levels of H2O2 in the teas .... examined, since the production of H2O2 in beverages such as coffee and green tea, has been reported. Only a small amount of H2O2 was detected in the herbal teas ... after their preparation with hot water. .... H2O2 was gradually produced during incubation at 25 °C after extraction with hot water .... when the teas were incubated in phosphate buffer at pH 7.4."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4M63RWS-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=11edbfbdf1ccc1cdd2f918eccbe01105

An encore of this post to add a note. I put the specific text in bold.

The fact that herbal teas contain only small amounts of peroxide makes sense to me - heat and hydrogen peroxide do not play well together (aside from other constitutents like possible Vitamin C) and coffee does contain hydrogen peroxide.

I was going to do another treatment, but I have a sore scalp. :( I'm not sure why, I think it might be a little sunburn or something. I figured it was best to leave it well alone.

kimki

I completely agree.

Are you sure it is not something else - a reaction to cardamom?

How long since your last treatment?

Has your scalp been sore before today?

Wednesday during the day was my last treatment. Scalp felt alright during the evening. But when I woke up this morning my scalp was a bit puffy, itchy and red in places. Very strange.

kimki

Not necessarily - that could be an allergic reaction.

What did you do in between then and now - you mentioned sunburn - were you out in the sun with your head/scalp unprotected?

In any case, I do not recommend another treatment until your scalp is better.

Had you patch tested cardamom? - even if you did - I suggest patch testing it again.

I did go out in the sun, but it didn't seem all that intense. Maybe the sun trigger something? I'm not sure. Some sort of reaction maybe.

I did patch test the cardamon, I guess will try another patch test when my scalp improves.

kimki

I have gotten sunburn without realizing how strong the sun was at the time.

Photosensitizers are not supposed to cause reactions washed out as far as I know.

I went back to your post - you washed/rinsed out the treatment?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125311&postcount=999

I am not clear on that.

I see no references to cardamom being a photosensitizer
http://www.draligus.net/4069-cardamom-elettaria-cardamomum.html

"limonene is a photosensitizer." but it is only one constituent of cardamom and it is not present in a large amount

"In the oil were found α-terpineol 45%, myrcene 27%, limonene 8%, menthone 6%, β-phellandrene 3%, 1,8-cineol 2%, sabinene 2% and heptane 2%. ....
Other sources .... 1,8-cineol (20 to 50%), α-terpenylacetate (30%), sabinene, limonene (2 to 14%) and borneol."
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Elet_car.html

I am so sorry that you are going through this - I do not think that it is serious but definitely keep an eye on it.

ktani thank you for that.

Sorry for the confusion. I shampoo'd out the treatment. Then did a vinegar rinse.

It is actually worse today, and I can feel my forehead is a little swollen. It's not incredibly sore, just uncomfortable and a itchy. I think I will have to get it checked out by the doc.

kimki

No worries on the confusion.

I agree - see a doctor.

If you shampooed the treatment out, IMO it should not be a photosensitive reaction.

Since it is just itchy now, from my experience with a sensitive scalp - it is healing. I never had local swelling though.

I am glad to read that the pain has subsided, at least.

My experiences and opinions on the subject of scalp sensitivity and reactions are not what you need now though - good professional medical advice is warranted.

Pictures of honey lightening, some with my commentary. I will be adding pictures as results come in.

Updated


On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

4 to 1 dilution - on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

brok3nwings - 4 to 1 dilution on brassy hair from and old semi and acv red/gold tones
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

Minx - from an older Honey thread - virgin hair with the old dilution recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=29214&postcount=72



On dark hair

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - the 4 to 1 dilution on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - latest pictures on layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

bizarrogirl - first pictures on henndigoed hair and the 2nd on layers of henna with the 4 to 1 dilution - she is an LHC member
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

wintersun99 - finally getting results with the 4 to1 dilution on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109189&postcount=569

GlennaGirl - 4 to 1 dilution on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with cinnamon, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

An encore of the updated Pictures Post

kimki

Considering your sensitized scalp right now and the fact that both cinnamon and cardamom can be irritants, when and only when your scalp is healed, consider this.

Both mellie and nayver had excellent results with Mellie's Mix - mellie most recently on layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - nayver on naturally black hair.

mellie's latest results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver's results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

Mellie's Mix
1 cup of water, 1 tablespoon each of Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), mullein to 1/4 cup honey.

Brew the herbal tea, let cool to room temperature - add the honey.

I suggest that because of your scalp being sensitized, regardless of the cause - as I said - only when you are fully recovered - that you patch test the mullein first - just in case.

This recipe may be all you need.

For any of you who remember, I posted here maybe a month ago, saying that my hair seemed to be getting darker, and I was wondering if it could be the honey rinse I was using. After finding out exactly what I was using on my hair, which included honey and orange juice rinses, ktani figured out that it was probably the castor oil in my CV shampoo bars! I have since stopped using the honey and orange juice rinses, I use CV bars only, and my hair is definitely getting darker. Here is a link to the shampoo bar thread where I posted about it:http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=128642&postcount=657 Thanks ktani!!:applause:

lynnala

Thank you!

I did not think that it was the honey because there had been no other reports of even dark coloured honeys depositing colour and I was monitoring reports in Honey for that. A number of people have asked if honey could do that.

I had posted in this thread that people should watch for that possibility. No reports came in.

When I asked you questions, and you and I went through what you were using, you told me that you had stopped the honey and orange juice rinses, that you had just continued with the shampoo bars and that your hair was still getting darker.

Then I researched castor oil and went to Ida's website - it all made sense to me.

Ida states on her website, that she uses more castor oil in the shampoo bars than the soap bars.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=84607&postcount=441



Castor oil is known to darken hair.

There have been reports about this on the net - even on LHC, recently. I took note and saved the post links.

See the last paragraph here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124839&postcount=19 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124839&postcount=19)

and then there is this post with more details.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125850&postcount=21 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125850&postcount=21)



It all fit together, but I was waiting to hear back from you - just to be sure about how much castor oil could darken hair.

lynnala

One piece of informtion is still missing.

Please state which CV bars that you have been using - from the start of the darkening until now - and how many times that you have used each.

lynnala

One piece of informtion is still missing.

Please state which CV bars that you have been using - from the start of the darkening until now - and how many times that you have used each.Let's see, I started with the nettle, I only used it a couple of times, and did notice slight darkening. Then started with the olive oil/babassu, I used that about 4 times and kept noticing the same slight darkening effect. Then I started using the Cafe Moreno, which has castor oil, coffee and rosemary. I've used that about 6 times now, and I've noticed the darkening effect drastically since using that bar.

Let's see, I started with the nettle, I only used it a couple of times, and did notice slight darkening. Then started with the olive oil/babassu, I used that about 4 times and kept noticing the same slight darkening effect. Then I started using the Cafe Moreno, which has castor oil, coffee and rosemary. I've used that about 6 times now, and I've noticed the darkening effect drastically since using that bar.

lynnala

Thank you

Coffee actually contains peroxide - it depends on how Ida prepares it for the bars (heat destroys or depletes hydrogen peroxide) - in any case, it has not been reported to darken hair all that much except in coffee glosses - with conditioner - over time.

Here is the coffee thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=1557

Rosemary is also known to darken hair.

I think that it is the combination of all 3 that is doing the major darkening on your hair, with castor oil taking the lead.

I think that the colour effect that it gives is cumulative.

I am not discounting the coffe stain or the rosemary - it is just that without the coffee or rosemary - your hair was already starting to darken.

lynnala

Thank you

Coffee actually contains peroxide - it depends on how Ida prepares it for the bars (heat destroys or depletes hydrogen peroxide) - in any case, it has not been reported to darken hair all that much except in coffee glosses - with conditioner - over time.

Here is the coffee thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=1557

Rosemary is also known to darken hair.

I think that it is the combination of all 3 that is doing the major darkening on your hair, with castor oil taking the lead.

I think that the colour effect that it gives is cumulative.

I am not discounting the coffe stain or the rosemary - it is just that without the coffee or rosemary - your hair was already starting to darken.That's what I think too, that the combo of the three make this particular bar show more effect, unless it's just the cumulative effect of using all the bars over the time. Hey, there's a test for my newly clipped hair ends, I can soak them with separate shampoo bars and see if there is any difference! (I just did a 1 1/2 inch trim). Oh, on her site Ida says she uses triple-strength brewed coffee in the bars, and I forgot, there are also the cloves, are they known for any color effects?

That's what I think too, that the combo of the three make this particular bar show more effect, unless it's just the cumulative effect of using all the bars over the time. Hey, there's a test for my newly clipped hair ends, I can soak them with separate shampoo bars and see if there is any difference! (I just did a 1 1/2 inch trim). Oh, on her site Ida says she uses triple-strength brewed coffee in the bars, and I forgot, there are also the cloves, are they known for any color effects?

lynnala

If Ida is brewing the coffee - that will deplete or destroy its peroxide content.

Triple brewed coffee will yield more stain. Soaking your ends in different shampoo bar solutions is a grea idea - however IMO, since the effect of castor oil is cumulative - that would need to be repeated.

I found no referencess to clove used as hair dye other than unreferenced articles on the net - I did a quick search - but it is an irritant and it has a low peroxide value compared to other spices. I do not recommemd it for hair colouring in any real quantity, especially after the reports of spice irritation from cinnamon and cardamom for some people.

In the quantities Ida is no doubt using - IMO - it is just fine.

"Excessive application .... undiluted clove oil on or near the teeth .... damage to dental pulp and irritation or damage to the gums and mouth. .... used for tooth and gum conditions only under the supervision of a dentist. Undiluted clove oil .... cause skin irritation, rashes, or even burns."
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Cloves.asp?sitearea=ETO

POV - Peroxide value of spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8...Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

More on clove - it is not something I recommend to start adding to a hair recipe without first thoroughly reading accredited sources on its safety.


"Side Effects

Clove .... well tolerated in studies .... is generally recognized as safe for use in foods. Some people .... experience skin irritation or painful sensations from clove. This .... lead to a rash; hives; burning; irritation; dry, peeling lips; blanching; chemical burns; lack of feeling; and sweating on skin exposed to clove."
http://www.ih1.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/31402/351409.html?d=dmtContent




"Toxicology

Clove and clove oils .... used safely in foods, beverages, and toothpastes. .... the level of clove used in foods does not exceed 0.24%; the oil is not used in amounts greater than 0.06%. .... the toxicity of the compound increases almost 200-fold when administered .... Increased toxicity by the pulmonary route .... in light of the toxicity reported among people who have smoked clove cigarettes"
http://www.drugs.com/npp/clove.html


"Cytotoxicity of clove (Syzygium aromaticum) oil and its major components to human skin cells.
.... essential oil extracted from clove (Syzygium aromaticum) is used as a topical application to relieve pain .... promote healing in herbal medicine .... use in the fragrance and flavouring industries. Clove oil has two major components, eugenol and beta-caryophyllene .... 78% and 13% of the oil .... Clove oil and these components .... generally recognized as 'safe', but the in-vitro study .... demonstrates cytotoxic properties of both the oil and eugenol, towards human fibroblasts and endothelial cells. Clove oil .... found to be highly cytotoxic at concentrations as low as 0.03% (v/v) with up to 73% of this effect attributable to eugenol. .... indicating that other cytotoxic components .... exist within the parent oil."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16872360

Thank you ktani. Apologies for the delayed response. It has been a nightmare trying to get on here as we all know.

The swelling on my scalp has gone down now, although it still feels a little tight and sore. I saw the doctor and he thought it looked like an allergic reaction to something. It was strange actually, the first time I used the cardamon I didnt mind the smell at all. The second time (when my scalp swelled the next day) the smell made me feel pretty sick.

So I think the next step is to patch test the recipe you suggest, will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

kimki

I am so glad to read that you are better and that you saw a doctor - which you said that you had planned to do.

I believe that everyone is allergic to something - even if they have yet to encounter it.

No apologies necessary for the delay at all.

The "server is busy" issue has been challenging.

Considering what happened - I suggest that you patch test each ingredient in Mellie's Mix - you could be even be allergic to chamomile, used topically.

Thank you ktani, yes the server problem is a bit of a nightmare!

Looking at the recipe I realised, I don't know what mullein is?

kimki

No worries - I keep a post index as well as a research stash.

I have read about mullein, Verbascum thapsus, being used for hair lightening.

Here is the Wiki information See "Uses"
"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus)

and here is the Plants For a Future database link, that also refers to its dye use, stating that to yield a yellow dye, the flowers must be boiled and that an infusion of the flowers can be used to dye hair a golden shade. See "Known Hazards" and "Other Uses"
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbascum+thapsus

Mullein cautions - See "Other info"
http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellow...spus_page.html (http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellowalt/Verbascum_thaspus_page.html)

Mullein is generally recognized as safe - See "Safety Issues"
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21821

If all else fails, you can just use 4 parts water to a good honey (one with a decent peroxide level) and a good extra virgin olive oil (one that is EVOO and not an EVOO olive oil blend)

That's interesting, so how do you buy it?

Do you use the flowers?

kimki

You can buy it in tea bags or loose from health food stores or online.

I have only seen the leaf not the flower tea.

I asked mellie which she used - she said that what she had looked like leaves.

Remember if you use a herbal tea - it should be cooled to room temperature before adding honey or the oil or spices to it.

mellie

Do you have more details on the mullein you use - where you buy it - how it is described where you buy it from, example - leaves or flowers, loose or tea bags, brand name?

Please.

kimki

You can buy it in tea bags or loose from health food stores or online.

I have only seen the leaf not the flower tea.

I asked mellie which she used - she said that what she had looked like leaves.

Remember if you use a herbal tea - it should be cooled to room temperature before adding honey or the oil or spices to it.


Ok, thank you.I will have a look. :)

kimki

I just did a shout out to mellie for more possible details on the mullein she uses.

mellie is always very helpful.

kimki

Mullein is actually sold both ways - leaf tea and flower tea - as well as loose and in tea bags.

"Mullein Flower Tea (Loose)" 8 oz is a lot (you only need 1 tablespoon at a time) - you can probably buy it in bulk at a lower price than this.
http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp511380 (http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp511380)

"Mullein leaf tea" - tea bags
http://health-beauty.pricegrabber.com/dietary-weight-loss/m/16091418/

"A yellow dye is obtained from the flowers by boiling them in water ..... used with dilute sulphuric acid .... produce a rather permanent green dye, this becomes brown with the addition of alkalis .... infusion of the flowers is .... used to dye the hair a golden colour ...."
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbascum+thapsus

With honey lightening - IMO - you do not want to add a golden colour to the hair but that can happen with chamomile tea as well. For lighter hair colours - that could be a problem.

Rethinking my recommendation of using chamomile and mullein flower tea for honey lightening.

Mullein leaves are not known to yield dye.

For blonde and light coloured hair, room temperature water may be preferable to herbal teas.

With the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, less spice can be used. This may be a better option than possibly adding a gold tone to the hair, which these teas can do.

IMO, that is what happened here when a strong chamomile tea was used in the recipe.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122501&postcount=952

The recipe included 3 tea bags of chamomile to 1 cup of water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120907&postcount=924

My response at the time.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122924&postcount=965

I use mullein leaves (cut, not powder) that I got in bulk from my local herb store. I believe the store gets it from www.mountainroseherbs.com.

The reason that I added it was because my herb book said that it "brightens" hair.

mellie

Thank you.

Thank you both for the useful info. Maybe I should give it a go.

When my natural hair colour grows out it is dark blonde, maybe golden tones will look nice?

kimki

From my own experience - German chamomile - Matricaria chamomilla - can yield a golden yellow stain but a weak tea does not yield much stain.

bunnyears at one point used 3 chamomile tea bags to 1 cup of water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120907&postcount=924

Roman chamomile - Anthemis nobilis - is the one traditionally used to lighten hair - I have never tried it.

Ok thats good to know.

I think I'm going to leave it for a while until my scalp is back to normal. ac

kimki

I do not recommend any honey lightening treatments for you until your scalp is fully recovered and then - take it slowly and patch test anything that you have never used on your scalp and skin first.

kimki

I do not recommend any honey lightening treatments for you until your scalp is fully recovered and then - take it slowly and patch test anything that you have never used on your scalp and skin first.

Will do. :) Thank you for your help, I'll let you know how I get on.

kimki

You are most welcome.

Yes, please do update and let me know how your scalp is doing - the honey lightening can wait.

Even though there have not been any reports of problems with mullein leaves - I am pointing this out.

See "Known Hazards"
"Hairs on the leaves can act as an irritant...."
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/...bascum+thapsus (http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbasc
um+thapsus)

I have used chamomile tea - German chamomile - with no problems - getting it my eyes caused temporary redness and itching though a few times.

I soak in catnip when I use it on my hair and get it in my eyes all the time - never a problem of any kind. In fact I have read that it is recommended as an eye wash. I have read the same thing about chamomile tea.

I had a small irritation in the corner my eye - on the eyelid - cold catnip relieved it.

I never patch tested catnip before I started using it or chamomile.

I recommended catnip to someone in a previous Honey thread - they sprayed catnip on their hair and they broke out in an itchy rash on their neck - you never know.

That is why patch testing first makes sense - you just never know.

It's true, you do never know. I think it can depend on circumstances as well. Some medication and illness's can cause sensitivity.

kimki

The worst scalp sensitivites I have had are from conventional conditioners and a few shampoos.

I can now - from researching, reading labels and reading a cosmetic dictionary - spot what I need to avoid - I do not react to products without certain ingredients.

Still, new ingredients are being put into products.

And I have reacted to plant ingredients in natural products too.

Being all natural is no guarantee of avoiding allergies or sensitivites.

Food allergies are very common.

I prefer the all or close to all natural route for myself - with compromises - I use a conventional shampoo.

But I am realistic - caution is advisable in general with new products of any kind - and research, IMO.

Learn about what you are using on you hair and skin and be as discriminating about your sources of information as you are about the products you chooose. Make sure the sources are well referenced.

Thank you ktani. I am working on moving to a more natural way of living. Not just want I put on my hair and skin, but I would like to go on a raw diet as well. All the additives, chemicals and rubbish that is but in everything...can't be good for us!

kimki

True - however, there are many chemicals in natural plants that are not good for us too.

Arsenic is all natural - so is cyanide.

Juglone in walnut hulls is toxic and there are others.

Comfrey and coltsfoot contain pyrrolizidine alkaloids - the list goes on.

Your right, that's very true. Careful research is needed.

kimki

The good thing is - the research is there - available - free - online and elsewhere - it just requires looking for it.

Take note of this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=5958

Kudos to ChloeDharma!

Regardless of what else is added to honey lightening recipes IMO, the 4 parts water to 1 honey dilution is the single most important factor for the current reports of better honey lightening results.

The second most important factor IMO - no Vitamin C content ingredients - except for cardamom.

The third most important factor - a decent honey - one that yields a good peroxide level - without that there can be no lightening IMO - but previous reported results have vastly improved with the new dilution (except for Mellie's Mix - which always had the dilution and reported results with it have been consistently excellent).

I just did not know why Mellie's Mix worked so well, until I found and read that link on testing honey for its peroxide level.

And the fourth most important factor IMO - no conditioner in the mix.

While herbal tea (cooled before adding the other recipe ingredients), is an option for honey lightening - Roman chamomile and mullein - I am not sure if Roman chamomile might stain lighter hair, I do not recommend regular or green tea.

Aside from the fact that tea is known to stain and can stain hair - it also contains Vitamin C.

“…. study by du Toit et al, showed that Black, Green and Oolong tea are all extremely good sources of vitamin C. …. 1 or 2 cups a day provide the equivalent of three glasses of orange juice or two capsules (200mg) of vitamin C.”
http://www.biodiversityexplorer.org/plants/theaceae/camellia_sinensis.htm (http://www.biodiversityexplorer.org/plants/theaceae/camellia_sinensis.htm)

The study
".... results show that one or two cups of tea would provide a similar amount of .... or 400 mg vitamin C equivalents. This would be comparable to two capsules (200 mg) of vitamin C. Caution is advised in extrapolating these in vitro results to humans due to bioavailability."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCN-43RYXBD-9&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=65587373f8d5852555d3ff7db9da70f7

I left in the last sentence on bioavailability - how much of the Vitamin C would actually be available to be absorbed by the human body.

Definition
"The degree to which or rate at which a drug or other substance is absorbed or becomes available at the site of physiological activity after administration."
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailability?cat=health

Regardless of that - the Vitamin C content makes tea not an option for honey lightening, IMO.

A slight honey lightening departure.

Regular tea and coffee rinses have been reported to be drying to the hair.

In my research on tea and Vitamin C, I came across possible explanations as to why regular tea rinses might be drying to the hair - its resin content - among other things - that IMO, can build-up on hair and or interfere with other products.

Tea - Camellia sinensis - chemistry
"Tea polyphenols also have high .... affinity to ..... carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids.
Herbal teas, which contain various known or unknown components .... quite different from tea (Camellia sinensis) ...."
http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm (http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm)

"A good amount of tea is placed in the pot with tweezers .... along with the cups it is washed in special bowls already filled with hot tea. This "seals" the cups with the tea's resins."
http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea (http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea)

Camellia sinensis - tea
"Constituents --.... aqueous extract, protein wax, resin, ash and theophylline."
http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm (http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm)

This is very interesting, IMO.

"APIMEDICA Presentation: Honey and Helicobacter Pylori - 2006

* Honey varieties higher in hydrogen peroxide content .... more effective in killing Helicobacter pylori .... compared to honey varieties with lower levels of hydrogen peroxide.

* Thyme honey, with its low pH and high osmolarity .... most effective in eliminating in vitro Helicobacter pylori."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

Osmolarity definition
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality)

Thyme honey, because of its Vitamin C content, has a lower peroxide value than other honeys - the other named factors - its acidity and osmolarity obviously have great significance.


I am getting better at understanding some of the more complicated aspects of the research - I am right.

"Osmotic effect of honey on growth and viability of Helicobacter pylori
Honey from New Zealand and Saudi Arabia at concentrations .... 20% (v/v) inhibit the growth of H. pylori in vitro. .... anti-H. pylori effect involves both hydrogen peroxide- and non-peroxide-mediated killing mechanisms.
Osmotic effects .... shown to be the most important parameter for killing H. pylori .... inhibited 100% of the H. pylori."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1718741

Something interesting in this link

"* Ulcers can be treated at a low cost by thyme honey .... difficult to maintain a high concentration of honey at the gastric mucosa .... extended periods."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

may have and answer from this link

"UMF Active Manuka to treat H. pylori
Research .... by world honey expert Dr Peter Molan .... Waikato University Honey Research Centre .... good results ....
eating 20g (a heaped teaspoon) of Active Manuka Honey on a small square of bread one hour before meals .... (The bread was added to ensure the honey stayed in the stomach for longer periods)"
http://www.honeybalm.com/article/36

I realize that I have hijacked this thread away from honey lightening on this page but I know of at least 2 people with H. pylori.

While honey is not a guarateed cure at this point - the standard treatment currently is various strong antibiotic cocktails which can require experimentation to get right - I do not think honey can hurt and from the research it may be very helpful.

I am not in any way suggesting that honey should be used to replace standard conventional medical therapy.

Always consult your doctor before attempting to self medicate, IMO.

Thyme honey can be purchased here for as little as $12 USD, as well as in food stores.
http://www.artisansweets.com/category/s

They ship internationally.
http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service (http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service)

and it is cheaper than UMF manuka honey, which is the only one guaranteed by New Zealand, to have the Unique Manuka Factor.

UMF Manuka honey can be purchased at health food stores or ordered online.

In Toronto, thyme honey can be purchased at

Greek House Food Market
565 DANFORTH AVE, TORONTO, ON M4K 1P9
in between Fenwick & Carlaw
(Cross Street: Carlaw AVE and Danforth AVE)
Phone: 416-469-1466 Thyme honey in jars, $13.99 ea

Can I ask a question ktani? I know you are not recommending conditioner anymore but just water , but did the conditioner and honey treatments still lighten hair at all in those who were doing those treatments earlier on?:ponder:
I was wondering who did just that and did get lightening before water was known to be better?
I will probably still do some more water and honey treatments with the other additives, but I am wondering also about the occasional honey and conditioner treatment even without the additional additives just as a treatment . Would you still get gradual lightening doing that as well. I like the feel of my hair after a honey and conditioner treatment more than a honey and water treatment and it's easier to apply. :shrug:

Can I ask a question ktani? I know you are not recommending conditioner anymore but just water , but did the conditioner and honey treatments still lighten hair at all in those who were doing those treatments earlier on?:ponder:
I was wondering who did just that and did get lightening before water was known to be better?
I will probably still do some more water and honey treatments with the other additives, but I am wondering also about the occasional honey and conditioner treatment even without the additional additives just as a treatment . Would you still get gradual lightening doing that as well. I like the feel of my hair after a honey and conditioner treatment more than a honey and water treatment and it's easier to apply. :shrug:

Alley Cat

The answer to your question is yes.

Honey and conditioner was reported to lighten hair.

However, the more the conditioner was diluted - more lightening was reported.

Here is an example of a report - going from all conditioner to 1/2 water 1/2 conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

And here is an example of a report - going from using conditioner previously to no conditioner and finally getting results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution works best IMO and in only 1 hour.

It may be more difficult to apply and get used to but again IMO, the results are worth it.

If you like the feeling of conditioner - try using conditioner only to wash the treatment out of your hair.

Conditioners can be problematic in the honey lightening recipes because of 2 reasons.

1. They can contain ingredients that interfere with the lightening.

2. Depending on their water content - they can shorten the supply of the water needed to reach the 4 parts water level.

Alley Cat

The answer to your question is yes.

Honey and conditioner was reported to lighten hair.

However, the more the conditioner was diluted - more lightening was reported.

Here is an example of a report - going from all conditioner to 1/2 water 1/2 conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

And here is an example of a report - going from using conditioner previously to no conditioner and finally getting results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution works best IMO and in only 1 hour.

It may be more difficult to apply and get used to but again IMO, the results are worth it.

If you like the feeling of conditioner - try using conditioner only to wash the treatment out of your hair.

Conditioners can be problematic in the honey lightening recipes because of 2 reasons.

1. They can contain ingredients that interfere with the lightening.

2. Depending on their water content - they can shorten the supply of the water needed to reach the 4 parts water level.
Thanks ktani :flowers:

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

GlennaGirl's previous results - honey lightening with conditioner and the 4 to 1 dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653


GlennaGirl's new signature picture details.

She did a water-only (no conditioner) treatment using honey and cinnamon - the 4 to 1 dilution.

and a cardamom treatment, using 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup conditioner, 1/4 cup honey and the cardamom.

Hair hennaed - after her latest 2 honey lightening treatments - unfortunately she had a temporary reaction to the cardamom.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6)


GlennaGirl's new thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=6111

Most important to me is the fact that there is scientific research that supports the results reported in all of the Honey threads to date, that honey lightening is not damaging to hair.

The recipe ingredients that contain peroxide, starting with honey, all contain constituents that have been clinically shown to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage. IMO, as I have said - this extends to hair.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123493&postcount=969

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123822&postcount=974

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124613&postcount=991



From past honey lightening recipes, tomato, a peroxide booster now not recommended because of its Vitamin C content - also contains these protective constituents.

“Tomatoes and tomato-based products contained primarily quercetin …. and…. myricetin.”
http://www.us.edu.pl/uniwersytet/jednostki/wydzialy/chemia/acta/ac13/zrodla/16_AC13.pdf

Hibiscus or roselle, also now not recommended for honey lightening because of Vitamin C - contains quercetin.

“…. flowers of Roselle …. contain quercetin …. “
http://www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/html/r/roselle.htm



While the amounts of these constituents may vary and the honey lightening peroxide containing ingredients do not necessarily contain all of the protective constituents named in the research, the reported results in the Honey threads have been consistent - honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.


An encore of the latest honey lightening news.

Pictures Post

Here are links to some pictures of Honey thread, honey lightening results.
Note: A number of these results were done before the 4 to 1 dilution was corrected, a treatment was recommended to be left to sit for 1 hour before being applied, and distilled water used.


On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

brok3nwings - on brassy hair from and old semi and acv red/gold tones - 4 to 1 dilution and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

brok3nwings - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98410&postcount=505

Minx - from an older Honey thread - virgin hair with the old dilution recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=29214&postcount=72

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801


On medium shades of hair

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635



On dark hair

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - the 4 to 1 dilution - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with the old 4 to1 dilution, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176850&postcount=1602

wintersun99 - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177909&postcount=1610

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. Use 4 times the amount of water to honey by weight, e.g. 40 grams distilled water to 10 grams honey. You can convert to ml, 1 gram = 1 ml, oz, tablespoons or cups.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Information on ground cinnamon can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314
Information on ground cardamom can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.
None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883
Store your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce its maximum peroxide value. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, and slightly damp or dry, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing unrinsed out rinse, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can be applied to dry, unwashed hair. This should help make drips less of a problem (the treatment will drip more on already wet hair). The recipes are liquid enough to fully saturate the hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. Plastic ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained. The hair must be kept completely wet during the time that the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a hat over a shower cap to keep it secure or wearing a swim cap is recommended.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing and or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and or vinegar are used. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

12. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

Apologies for not posting this sooner, but I was totally tied up and couldn't take an 'after' photo until yesterday. I did run through the 2-hour cassia-honey treatment which firebird did. It does seem to have worked now that I'm comparing the photos:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975 http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977
Before and After

The before photo is taken right after my hair had come down from an updo, it's all out of shape and the after photo is taken right after my hair was dry after showering yesterday, so it's looking a bit 'unkept'. :o

Lately I do have a reddish tinge coming back into my hair that used to be there when I was younger, but that seems to show up when my hair lightens up naturally. It's just that I've gotten both sunshine and honey lightening lately, so it's lightened up the brownish bits of my hair which then seem to show some strawberry blonde. :)

morgwn

Thank you so much for posting the pictures. No apologies are necessary.

Yes, IMO your hair is definitely lighter! The blonde parts look less gold to me as well.

Reddish tones in darker hair colours as they lighten are natural.

If you continue to lighten - they will go brown then gold then blonde.

This is the recipe firebird used and her reported results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

How is the condition of your hair?

How is the condition of your hair?

It's quite soft and shiny. Although it does still have its flyaways if I don't tame them a bit, but that's always been my hair. :) However, I have noticed a difference in the thickness which I'm most happy about. The individual hairs are also stronger, which is the opposite of how my hair usually gets when it lightens from the sun alone.

It's quite soft and shiny. Although it does still have its flyaways if I don't tame them a bit, but that's always been my hair. :) However, I have noticed a difference in the thickness which I'm most happy about. The individual hairs are also stronger, which is the opposite of how my hair usually gets when it lightens from the sun alone.
morgwn

That result has been reported before in different forms.

Hair in better condition following honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=82420&postcount=427

Thicker, stronger hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

and no damage to previously damaged hair following honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=113522&postcount=717

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=113529&postcount=719

Thank you for reporting it now. I am keeping records.

Now at least I understand why honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair to date in any Honey thread - the recipe ingredients all contain constituents which have been shown clinically to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133681&postcount=1094

IMO - this applies to hair too.

Ktani, I certainly have never found my hair to be damaged by any sort of honey treatment, be it lightening or conditioning. For example, why would honey be included in hair repair recipes if it could be damaging? :)

But just to clarify, I do think that it was the cassia and honey combined that made my hair stronger and have me notice no breakage over this past week. I did a cassia treatment without honey about a month ago and I felt the same effects but not to the same extent as when I just did the cassia with honey. Hence why I feel that the two combined is the only way that I'll go in the future. :)

Ktani, I certainly have never found my hair to be damaged by any sort of honey treatment, be it lightening or conditioning. For example, why would honey be included in hair repair recipes if it could be damaging? :)

But just to clarify, I do think that it was the cassia and honey combined that made my hair stronger and have me notice no breakage over this past week. I did a cassia treatment without honey about a month ago and I felt the same effects but not to the same extent as when I just did the cassia with honey. Hence why I feel that the two combined is the only way that I'll go in the future. :)

morgwn

Thank you for the clarification.

It is good to know that honey lightening with cassia leaves the hair in better condition than cassia alone - the honey needs to be well diluted though to avoid cassia possibly yielding colour - and no acid like orange juice mixed in with the cassia either, which has not been allowed to sit for dye release.

I recommend premixing the cassia with water just before adding it to the honey lightening recipe.

The results that I linked in my post to you did not all include cassia - in fact firebird is the only one who used cassia in her honey lightening recipe. And the link I gave for firebird was about honey lightening in general for her - not related to her honey lightening with cassia results.

I am not suggesting that the stronger hair reported results are typical for honey lightening - I am just noting it.

The no damage reported results are consistent.

Honey only produces peroxide on dilution.

As to recipes out there suggested for hair possibly damaging hair - or containing toxic ingredients or ingredients that do not work as specified - there are many of those that I have read - recipes containing large amounts of alcohol - real alcohol - herbs and plant products that are questionable due to their toxicity - plants that do not add colour as stated, etc.

Putting lemon juice on the hair or lemon vodka and sitting out in the sun to get hi-lights are just 2 examples - let alone possibly getting skin burns or damage.

morgwn

Thank you for the clarification.

It is good to know that honey lightening with cassia leaves the hair in better condition than cassia alone - the honey needs to be well diluted though to avoid cassia possibly yielding colour - and no acid like orange juice mixed in with the cassia either, which has not been allowed to sit for dye release.

I recommend premixing the cassia with water just before adding it to the honey lightening recipe.

I definitely did follow your and firebird's advice on the recipe with not using any sort of acidic liquid with the cassia; hence why I think I on;y had a bit of lightening from the honey and no added yellowish or reddish tones in my hair. I did premix the cassia with water first and then mixed it with the EVOO. I may try using the chamomile tea at some point, which you did post recently that you thought would still work with the cassia and honey if it was allowed to cool to RT first. However, I'm quite happy with the results as they now stand. :)

morgwn

I am glad that you are pleased with the the recipe as you used it.

Using chamomile tea in the recipe was an idea I have reconsidered as I am unsure if even Roman chamomile tea might add some colour to the hair.

In a report where a very strong chamomile tea was used with a honey lightening recipe, a gold tone was added to the hair - the type of chamomile was unspecified. From my own experience with German chamomile, chamomile tea can add a gold colour to hair- for me though, it depended on the strength of the tea used.

The idea was that chamomile tea used in a honey lightening recipe with spice would act to counter irritation.

However, with 4 parts water to 1 part honey, less spice can be used and has been reported to yield even better results than more spice used with another dilution.

For blondes, lighter hair colours and hair colours where the possibility of added colour is not wanted, I think that plain water is the way to go rather than risking added colour by using a herbal tea.

morgwn, I'm so glad you got good results from the mixture!

morgwn, I'm so glad you got good results from the mixture!

Thanks, firebird. :) Is this something which you keep up monthy or bi-monthly?

I have edited this post to now include the updated Pictures Post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

morgwn, yes I try to do it roughly every 2-4 weeks. It's really good to know that it's possible to do cassia with or without a darkening effect and still get the conditioning!

It's really good to know that it's possible to do cassia with or without a darkening effect and still get the conditioning!

Definitely! I will be keeping up with the cassia and honey combo at least monthly for a while yet, so I hope to have more pics to post as time goes on. ;)

morgwn

I look forward to seeing more pictures.

A Comprehensive Summary of the newest honey lightening recommendations. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion table - See "Convert cup of honey into grams g, ounces oz or tablespoons." Use 4 times the amount of water by weight, e.g. 40 grams water to 10 grams of honey. You can also convert to ml, because 1 gram = 1 ml.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.

4. Herbal teas if used instead of straight distilled water - chamomile - Roman chamomile is preferable but it is possible that chamomile can add a gold tone to the hair. Mullein - leaves only not flowers - the leaves are not known to add colour. The herbal tea should be brewed with distilled water.

5. Herbal tea that is used with honey lightening needs to be cooled first to room temperature before any other ingredients are added to it. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into herbal tea, when the honey is added first.

6. For blondes, lighter hair colours, and hair colours where one does not want the possibility of added colour, distilled water is better than risking added colour by using herbal tea.

7. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

8. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients except herbal tea should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide by decomposing it to water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883

9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

10. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

11. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.