3. It is a honey lightening treatment with cassia - not a cassia treatment - do not use as much cassia as you would for a separate cassia treatment - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution should still allow only 1 hour to be needed for lightening.

So just to make sure I'm getting it right, this recipe from firebird does still allow the hair to receive the benefits of cassia (i.e. the thickening, softness and shine), but also allows the honey to lighten the hair? Or to get the full benefits of cassia and honey does one still have to do them separately?

I also found a recipe on a cassia site that uses honey and is stated to be for blondes. Is the honey's purpose herein for slight lightening or solely moisturising?

Cassia Obovata and Honey Blend Recipe

* Take 50% [of typical amount of] cassia obovata in a bowl
* Brew a strong chamomile tea, about 4 tea bags to 1 cup. Allow to cool and take tea bags out or strain.
* Use your warm liquid and add it to your cassia slowly a bit at a time as you want your mixture to remain rather muddy.
* Allow to sit for about 1-2 hours.
* Then slowly add your honey (I used unpasteurized) and mix together well. Keep your mixture to a nice smooth yoghurt-thick consistency.
* Then apply on your hair (damp/towel dry hair always works best), and wrap well. Let that sit on your hair at least 2-3 hours.
* Then wash out really well and get every last bit out. Then you may moisturize your hair with hair oil, or a leave-in conditoner.

So just to make sure I'm getting it right, this recipe from firebird does still allow the hair to receive the benefits of cassia (i.e. the thickening, softness and shine), but also allows the honey to lighten the hair? Or to get the full benefits of cassia and honey does one still have to do them separately?

I also found a recipe on a cassia site that uses honey and is stated to be for blondes. Is the honey's purpose herein for slight lightening or solely moisturising?

Cassia Obovata and Honey Blend Recipe

* Take 50% [of typical amount of] cassia obovata in a bowl
* Brew a strong chamomile tea, about 4 tea bags to 1 cup. Allow to cool and take tea bags out or strain.
* Use your warm liquid and add it to your cassia slowly a bit at a time as you want your mixture to remain rather muddy.
* Allow to sit for about 1-2 hours.
* Then slowly add your honey (I used unpasteurized) and mix together well. Keep your mixture to a nice smooth yoghurt-thick consistency.
* Then apply on your hair (damp/towel dry hair always works best), and wrap well. Let that sit on your hair at least 2-3 hours.
* Then wash out really well and get every last bit out. Then you may moisturize your hair with hair oil, or a leave-in conditoner.

morgwn

That recipe you found is likely to dye release IMO - the mix is allowed to sit and both the honey and chamoile tea are acidic.

The pH of honey varies from 3.2 to 6 and that is not something I think you want to gamble with unless you want colour from the cassia - the chrysophanic acid in cassia yields different colours in different acid solutions - anything from yellow to yellow/orange to gold to red.

firebird was doing 2 separate treatments - a cassia treatment and a honey lightening treatment.

I suggested blending the 2 and to avoid any cassia colour - unlike her previous cassia mixes with orange juice followed by undiluted honey and EVOO 1 hour later, after the cassa had been sitting during that time, to do what I posted for you.

It worked - she got the extra conditioning, lighter hair and no colour from the cassia.

firebird used only 25 grams of cassia in that honey lightening treatment.

firebird's recipe, results and before and after pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

She let the treatment stay on her hair for 2 hours because 1 hour still makes her a little anxious for the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

I think that 1 hour for the mix she used, the way she used it is sufficient.

It worked - she got the extra conditioning, lighter hair and no colour from the cassia.

That's what I needed to confirm. :) I am going to be doing another cassia treatment in another couple weeks, so I'll use that method and try and get my DHTB to take some before and after photos. For both my sake as well as to post; I really can't tell differences very easily just looking in the mirror!

Thanks a bunch for answering my tonne of questions. :)

morgwn

I do not know if firebird got the same amount of conditioning from the honey lightening treatment with cassia as she did from cassia alone.

firebird?

ktani and morgwn - yes, I definitely think I got good conditioning from my honey/cassia/etc mixture. Actually, I think the condition of my hair with my mixture was better than cassia alone - when I have just used cassia, my hair has needed a few days to 'recover' from initial dryness, but with my mixture, it is great immediately and has just as much added shine and thickness. It also washes off *much* more easily than straight cassia (I can do it in a shower with no problems, I have never felt the need to 'mermaid soak' as recommended in the cassia thread). I think the amount of EVOO is very dependent on your individual hair, I had to experiment until I found an amount which didn't leave an oily residue. However, even when there was a residue, the next wash (shampoo) it was gone, so no big deal, and since EVOO is good for hair, I don't think it caused any problems at all. From my experiments, I would never do straight cassia again, when I can do the cassia/honey etc mixture - great results and much easier! With the cassia/honey treatment, I usually leave it a little longer than an hour as I am anxious not to waste my efforts with the cassia, also it's a pain for me as I only have a fixed showerhead and so have to get in the shower each time I do my hair. I'm sure ktani is right and only an hour would work though, but more time doesn't do any harm lol!

Anyway, ktani is absolutely right in that if you don't want it to darken your hair, don't allow it to release dye - no acid and no waiting before putting it on your hair.

Hope this helped, and good luck morgwn, I look forward to your pictures (they definitely really help in seeing a difference in your hair)!

firebird

Thank you so much for replying to my shout out.

I can always count on you to be helpful.

I can count on others too but I am referring to your help as usual right now.

ktani, you're welcome, I'm glad I could help :)

Morgwn - just to recap, my mixture for non-darkening cassia was:

2 tablespoons honey
8 tablespoons water
2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
25g cassia

This was plenty for my hair - IMO you won't need any more cassia than this, from your profile, your hair seems fairly similar to mine, so it should work fine, I really hope it does!

Just an added note here for firebird and morgwn.

For a honey lightening treatment with cassia I would not use chamomile tea.

Its pH is not too acidic but just to be on the safe side - leave it out of the recipe, to help avoid any colour from the cassia.

firebird, thanks for your reply and clarification on this point. I really appreciate it. I just did a cassia treatment a few days back, so I'm not due for another couple weeks, but I'll post back on here when I do try this recipe out. Judging from the fact that you've got a similar length to mine and similar volume, I think I'll try the same amounts which you did for the first time. My whurls will suck up that amount of EVOO, I'm pretty sure.

morgwn

Please see my post just above yours - just in case - I think I posted while you were composing your reply.

I meant to reply to say that my haircolor didn't change much with one application of Mellie's Mix.

I completely forgot the cinnamon until after I applied the mixture to my hair and just put it on top. It did burn, so I won't forget next time. Haha!

I think my hair is slightly less harshly black, but it's not a big enough difference to count as results, imo.

Here's a picture though.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=633&pictureid=12543

It's still black, but it seems a little softer to me. You can also see in this picture the color difference between my natural color and the black. The funny shorter pieces in the back is an undercut that I'm in the process of growing out, but it shows the color difference wonderfully.

I may try the recipe again sometime, as I still have ingredients to do another one. It did smell wonderful and wasn't too much of a hassle. My only issue was getting all of the bits of cinnamon out, as I *still* have some in my hair. :rolleyes: I'm hoping that will be a little easier to take care of when everything is mixed together beforehand.

I meant to reply to say that my haircolor didn't change much with one application of Mellie's Mix.

I completely forgot the cinnamon until after I applied the mixture to my hair and just put it on top. It did burn, so I won't forget next time. Haha!

I think my hair is slightly less harshly black, but it's not a big enough difference to count as results, imo.

Here's a picture though.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=633&pictureid=12543

It's still black, but it seems a little softer to me. You can also see in this picture the color difference between my natural color and the black. The funny shorter pieces in the back is an undercut that I'm in the process of growing out, but it shows the color difference wonderfully.

I may try the recipe again sometime, as I still have ingredients to do another one. It did smell wonderful and wasn't too much of a hassle. My only issue was getting all of the bits of cinnamon out, as I *still* have some in my hair. :rolleyes: I'm hoping that will be a little easier to take care of when everything is mixed together beforehand.

KajiKodomo

It took 2 treatments with Mellie's Mix, both without cinnamon or any added peroxide booster, for nayver to lighten her naturally black hair.

IMO, if you forget the cinnamon in a honey lightening treatment, - forget about it completely and do not apply it on top of the treatment - it is not worth feeling the burn - pun intended.

I do not take what happened to you lightly - you are lucky that your reaction was not worse, although no lasting problems with cinnamon irritation have been reported.

Thank you so much for posting your results and picture.

You might want to consider a mix of cinnamon and cardamom, or cardamom alone, well mixed into the treatment before it is applied next time as you said, perhaps with a bit of extra virgin olive oil as well if you want to add peroxide boosters.

Not too much spice though - with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, you can use less than you otherwise might need to get results.

I am glad for you to read that you think that the black colour has softened up somewhat.

Good luck with your next treatment.

firebird

I know that the honey lightening treatment with cassia worked beautifully for you the way that you did it.

The only other precaution I recommend aside from no chamomile tea in the treatment for both you and morgwn, is as I posted for her, just before you add the cassia, premix it with some water.

That should help ensure that any acidity from the honey, which is already diluted 4 x its amount with water, will not affect it.

Ktani, you've been such a help! I have noted all your precautions and advice on this matter and am taking advantage of your experience and research alongside firebird's experience. :)

morgwn

You are most welcome.

The other problem with that recipe you found is that the honey added to it is undiluted.

When firebird did that with her cassia previously, the cassia added red/gold tones to her hair.

I do not know how much of that result was the orange juice, or the combination of the orange juice and honey and letting the cassia sit to dye release but the research is clear - chrysophanic acid, the main pigment of cassia, is sensitive to acids and can yield a whole range of colours.

See # 290 “Chrysophanic acid .... from all sources …. orange-red with sulphuric acid, yellow with nitric acid, and a yellow solution ...."
http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=AN9154000287&JournalCode=AN

IMO, it is better to be safe than sorry and have to undo unwanted colour results.

Just to clarify - I do not use cassia - but I have read on these boards that cassia can leave a brassy tone on the hair, especially on blonde hair. I got curious as to how and why it did that and researched it.

The research I did - the experience - that is firebird's in this case.

Hi all again:)
So yesterday I put this mix mostly concentrating on my 2 inch roots:
2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

I left it on my hair for 3 hours, constantly rewetting it. It wasn't dripping wet the whole time, but it felt moist enough. Sadly, it didn't lighten my hair at all :( I wonder if I should use more honey next time? 4 ounces, instead of 2 ounces? Is it too soon to try this again tonight? What should I do differently this time to make it effective? Thanks!!!!

Hi all again:)
So yesterday I put this mix mostly concentrating on my 2 inch roots:
2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

I left it on my hair for 3 hours, constantly rewetting it. It wasn't dripping wet the whole time, but it felt moist enough. Sadly, it didn't lighten my hair at all :( I wonder if I should use more honey next time? 4 ounces, instead of 2 ounces? Is it too soon to try this again tonight? What should I do differently this time to make it effective? Thanks!!!!

Bunnyears

Thank you for reporting your recipe and results.

I am sorry to read that the treatment has not worked for you so far.

Did you use 8 oz of water?

If you did it might be the honey - some honeys just do not produce that much peroxide.

More of the wrong honey will not help.

The dilution needs to be 4 x the amount of water to the amount of honey used - the minimum amount of honey to be used - 1/8th cup or 10 grams.

Try a different honey - a cheap dark coloured blend and cover your hair with plastic - your hair should not feel moist - it should be wet - the whole time - and you should only need 1 hour to see results.

Covering your hair with plastic - a bag is the easiest IMO, is preferable to not covering it and misting it occassionally.

You are guessing as to how much water to add to compensate for the natural evaporation of the water, when you do that.

As the water evaporates and the treatment starts to dry, the honey slows its rate of peroxide production - if the hair dries - the honey stops producing peroxide.

In the research on honey and wounds - after honey has been applied to an open wound to disinfect and help heal it, the wound is covered.

This not only protects it IMO, it also keeps the wound wet inside so that the honey can keep producing peroxide non stop.

I have not read about a wound being left open and misted every once in a while to keep it wet, while honey is on it.

"Although it may be very viscous or even solid at room temperature, honey .... very fluid at body temperature and even more fluid if diluted with .... volumes of exudate. It is therefore very important that sufficient honey is applied to a wound .... kept in place if a good therapeutic effect is to be obtained."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

The theraputic effect discussed is from the main antibacterial component of the honey - the hydrogen peroxide.

As I posted earlier today, a wound produces its own fluid, hair does not - so the honey needs to be very well diluted before it is applied to the hair - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey, and kept wet.

You can do honey lightening as often as you wish.

Other than honey residue dryness, which can be resolved with shampooing or a vinegar rinse, no negative effects to the hair have been reported.

firebird

I know that the honey lightening treatment with cassia worked beautifully for you the way that you did it.

The only other precaution I recommend aside from no chamomile tea in the treatment for both you and morgwn, is as I posted for her, just before you add the cassia, premix it with some water.

That should help ensure that any acidity from the honey, which is already diluted 4 x its amount with water, will not affect it.

Thanks ktani! I'll do that next time :)

firebird

You are welcome.

While I have you online, did you ever try cassia with just orange juice, no honey and what if any colour result did you get?

I keep forgetting to ask you this.

And have you always let cassia sit for dye release previously?

ktani - yes, I have tried just cassia and orange juice in the past, and I have always let it sit for dye release first. However, it was before I really came on LHC much, and I don't remember noticing a change in colour. I find it hard to tell differences though without doing photos! So I'm afraid I can't really help you much with the effects of cassia on my hair before. Also, before my experiment with the red dye, which led to the blonde dye on the length of my hair, all my hair was virgin, therefore as dark as my new growth in the original 'before' picture I posted. Maybe then it was dark enough not to have much change in colour? I'm sorry I can't be more helpful!

firebird

You have been more helpful than you realize, IMO.

If your previous cassia treatments had affected your hair colour in a major way - like when the treatments did before this last one, and you first noticed the red tones, others would have commented.

Yes, it can be difficult to perceive your own colour sometimes without pictures but I recall, that when you first noticed the red/gold in your hair, that others noticed it too.

So I think that your previous cassia mixes with orange juice alone did not yield as noticeable a colour change even if they did yield one.

Which means to me, that the undiluted honey mixed with the orange juice, tipped the cassia's acidity just enough to alert you as well as others to the change in colour, which while it may be more noticeable on your previously dyed blonde length was still very noticeable on your virgin regrowth, that is not that dark.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

I think that if your previous cassia results were such a red/gold tone, the colour would have been noticed on your natural colour too.

ktani, yes, you are right, I had not thought of it in that way. That's really interesting how the addition of honey in my more recent mixture could have affected the colour like this. It would be interesting to do a cassia/orange juice mixture now and take pictures!

firebird

LOL, well you now know how to remedy it, whichever way it goes.

And you would have to do that as a separate cassia treatment - if you add the orange juice mixed cassia to a honey lightening treatment - the Vitamin C in the orange juice will affect the peroxide in the honey and the EVOO, lowering the recipe peroxide level.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

I posted this in another thread but it is relevant to Honey because it is report on how Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), the one used in Mellie's Mix, lightened an LHC member's hair years ago.

The recipe in this post does not replace honey lightening - it goes to Roman chamomile's possible contribution to lightening in a honey lightening recipe - except one with cassia obovata (because of the acidic pH of chamomile), which may affect the cassia, causing it to yield colour - See pages 76 and 77 in this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=115240&postcount=6

Tonight I tried doing the honey/cinnamon again. Well, I used more cinnamon this time, and it really burned my face so I washed it off right away. I'm worried because the red streaks on my face are still there (just as the other member who reported redness on her back.) I hope it goes away! Yesterday I used a smaller amount and had no reaction.


Thank you ktani, for answering my previous question. I am very grateful. I took your advice and applied to very wet hair with a blush brush on my hair this time. It's much more efficient that way. I am also utilizing a platic cap this time. I'll report in the morning.

Bunnyears

I m so sorry that you got such a bad reaction to the cinnamon!

It should be temporary.

If you have any aloe vera gel, that should help soothe your skin.

Please be very careful if you use it again or just leave it out of your mix.

If you want to use a spice booster, patch test cardamom and see if that is better for you and use chamomile tea as your water base with the honey.

You could also try just a bit of extra virgin olive oil as your only peroxide booster.

I am concerned as to how you made out this tme.

Everything else in your method sounds great - I am glad for you that the mellie's method of application is easier for you.

Using a blush brush is brilliant! - very creative.

Ktani, thanks again!
Thankfully the redness subsided after 20 minutes.
I actually performed the honey ritual twice in a row last night. The first time I mixed just honey and four parts water and left it on with a cap for an hour. Unfortunately even with the cap on my roots (which is what I'm targeting most) dry very quickly. It seems like they repel water in nanoseconds, unlike the rest of the hair which is bleached and hangs on to every drop of water because it's so porous. After one hour I rinsed and applied the same mixture again and this time not only covered with acap but also wrapped a damp towel around it. I left it on for an hour again, and even with the towel the roots were damp when I took off the cap.
I'm wondering if the peroxide only works on previously processed hair (such as hennaed, colored, bleached) as opposed to virgin hair. It seems to me that virgin hair (my roots) is too resistant and not porous enough for the peroxide to penetrate the cuticle. Since processed hair is more porous it may receive the peroxide much better than virgin hair. How can peroxide permeate a healthy hair when there is no agent such as ammonia to open the cuticle to deposit the peroxide inside the hair shaft and take out the melanin?

Also, so far I've tried Golden Blossom Honey (white clover, sage buckwheat, and orange blossom blend,) Krasdale (clover,) Goya honey (very dark, but don't know what it's made of,) and Capilano Australian honey (Eucalyptus leucoxylon, Blue Gum.) None of these worked for me... I don't see too many dark honeys, or blends, but most of th cheap ones are clover. Can you please specify a certain brand, or variety that am work better? Thank you.

Ktani, thanks again!
Thankfully the redness subsided after 20 minutes.
I actually performed the honey ritual twice in a row last night. The first time I mixed just honey and four parts water and left it on with a cap for an hour. Unfortunately even with the cap on my roots (which is what I'm targeting most) dry very quickly. It seems like they repel water in nanoseconds, unlike the rest of the hair which is bleached and hangs on to every drop of water because it's so porous. After one hour I rinsed and applied the same mixture again and this time not only covered with acap but also wrapped a damp towel around it. I left it on for an hour again, and even with the towel the roots were damp when I took off the cap.
I'm wondering if the peroxide only works on previously processed hair (such as hennaed, colored, bleached) as opposed to virgin hair. It seems to me that virgin hair (my roots) is too resistant and not porous enough for the peroxide to penetrate the cuticle. Since processed hair is more porous it may receive the peroxide much better than virgin hair. How can peroxide permeate a healthy hair when there is no agent such as ammonia to open the cuticle to deposit the peroxide inside the hair shaft and take out the melanin?

Also, so far I've tried Golden Blossom Honey (white clover, sage buckwheat, and orange blossom blend,) Krasdale (clover,) Goya honey (very dark, but don't know what it's made of,) and Capilano Australian honey (Eucalyptus leucoxylon, Blue Gum.) None of these worked for me... I don't see too many dark honeys, or blends, but most of th cheap ones are clover. Can you please specify a certain brand, or variety that am work better? Thank you.

Bunnyears

I am relieved to hear that the cinnamon irritation subsided so quickly.

Honey lightening has been reported to work just fine on virgin hair.

If you look at firebird's pictures you can see how honey lightening lightened her virgin regrowth.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

Did you wash/clarify your hair before trying the treatments?

Alfalfa honey has been very successful for mellie - clover honey was not.

Yay! Thanks so much!! I'll run to the store and look for alfalfa honey!!! Your timing is perfect, I was just on my way. I'll try again tonight and report later. I won't experiment with spices anymore, it's a little too messy, but EVOO is always in my pantry, so I'll add that. I admit, I'm hoping for a miracle that'll lighten up those ashy brown roots to at least a brassy tone (even that is preferable to that horrible mousy brown!) Oh well...

Bunnyears

Good luck!

I would wash and maybe clarify your hair first tonight - it may help.

You can also do a roots only application.

You could try chamomile tea - it should help with any leftover irritation.

Thanks again for the kind words, ktani. :)


Okay, I have pictures from this afternoon in the sun. It was really hot today!


Here is wet hair.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008wet.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg



And 6 hours later... dry hair. I had a lot of free time today, apparently. Haha.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-20082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/newhair1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/topofhead5-2008.jpg

Hopefully this helps! I have never taken pictures of just my hair in sunlight before so it's crazy to me to see how much red has shown up in the past few years. I had no idea it was that much.

flapjack

This 2nd one in the wet hair pair should work well as your before - to compare against new pictures after treatments.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg

It is more of what I need to see your true colour. I just need a bit more of the top of you head, without you leaning your head forward.

If you can duplicate this angle and lighting for the next set - it should be good.

Thank you so much for going to the trouble to do this.

Duplicating the angle and lighting will be easy, so I will be able to do that next time as well. I will take some more pictures after 1-2 more treatments, depending on how they turn out. My hair doesn't look as light as I originally thought, so I will be doing it more.


That makes me think of something, though. How long do you think this effect from the honey lasts?


And you're welcome, it's not a problem, really. The photos only took a few minutes with a timer. :D

flapjack

It should be permanent. Honey lightening does not usually redarken - when it has - it can be traced to something else in the recipe.

If you are worried about roots - you can just do a roots only application from time to time.

firebird did to even out her virgin regrowth from both a previous conventional dye and honey lightening.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

Ah okay, that's great. I can do this to even out my roots when they get a bit darker in the winter... like firebird is doing. Permanent coloring that doesn't harm your hair is pretty fantastic.

Ok, this is a shout out to:

bizarrogirl

blackfrostqueen

brok3nwings

Celebrian

choleishere

coralsky

Fiberaddict

firebird

flapjack

frannyg

GlennaGirl

goldilocks

Javadandy

Joliebaby

kathrynrose

LadyPolaris

Liv

Lovitar

Maluhia

mellie

Minx

nayver

Palms

Raederle

sandrak

Simplylonghair

Viviane

wintersun99


and anyone else please who has had successful honey lightening (I would have to go through 5 Honey threads to name you all), so if your name is not on the list please forgive me, and do not be shy.

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post.

ETA: While pictures as always are most welcome - this is about the brand name and plant source of the honey - so - if you do not have or do not wish to post pictures - no worries.

I will start this with Trader Joe's squeeze bear honey (no plant source named, unfortunately) and I know that mellie used alfalfa honey with success.

I want to have a list for others, that I will assemble from replies.

Ktai, what a delicious idea! Thanks for taking my cue and doing the survey on types of honey! I have about 6 bottles in my pantry right now, and have been eating way more honey than usual :)

Bunnyears

You are welcome.

I have a Preferred List of Conditioners that is now not applicable, IMO.

Honey is good for you, lol.

Did you manage to find alfalfa honey?

The two I have used are both trader joe brands. First three times I did it with 100% desert mesquite honey. The fourth time I used clover blossom honey. The only reason I switched is because I simply ran out. As far as I know, I got the same amount of results from both and they're both about the same color as well. The clover blossom might be a little darker, actually. But it looks pretty negligible.

flapjack

Thank you for the fast reply.

I am going to have my work cut out for me on this - but it will be worth it - your post will be recorded in my post index and I will start the list.

Ok, this is a shout out to: (...)

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post. (...)

I'm sorry ktani, but I won't be of much help on this one. I live in Brazil and the honey I used is by a Brazilian brand called Bio21, which I had never heard of - you probably don't have it there. Plus it does not state any plant source for the product. I do know two things - it was fairly expensive (70% above the price of other brands of honey), and it's not too dark. Not light either, I'd say it's a caramel color. Hubby thinks he saw a sign next to it in the supermarket which said it was orange blossom honey, but don't rely too much on that, the label doesn't say anything.

Everyone around me did notice some lightening (mainly the burgundy henna faded a little towards orange) and I left the mix (honey + 2 parts conditioner + 2 parts chamomile tea + 2 tbsp cinnamon) in my hair for 3 hours, covered with saran wrap, shower cap and towel.

I cannot wait to try this recipe with a darker honey from a mixed source, and with no conditioner. I believe I'll notice a good improvement. :)

Okay, I used Ralph's brand honey. It's pure clover honey, made here in the United States. Ralph's is a grocery chain here; I think the parent company is Kroeger's. I only ever used it with conditioner, on wet hair; I was additive-free :misskim:

LadyPolaris

This is an international forum - all replies, plant sources if available and brand names are welcome - the colour of the honey is not important for this - the results are.

Thank you for your reply - your honey will go on the list.

And thank you for your recipe and details.

Raederle

Thank you so much for replying.

As I just said, the colour of the honey is not important - this is about results.

I know what the research says but I want tried and true reports on honeys.

I will add your honey to the list.

Hi! I am reporting back to post my recipes, results and pictures, since you asked!

I did two honey lightenings, though the second was accidental. Both times I used "Nature's Best" organic honey, which is available in pretty much every supermarket I've been to. The flowers used are not specified, but I suspect it is clover honey. It came in an "upside down" bear bottle, with the nozzle on the bottom.

The first honey lightening treatment gave reasonable, but not exceptional results.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1439c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpg

For that recipe, I used 3 tablespoons VO5 champagne kiss conditioner, 1 tablespoon olive oil, and 1 tablespoon honey. This was left in for about 9-10 hours total. (I know there has been more research since then-- probably the honey was not active all night, or for more than a few hours. At the time, the 4:1 water-based-liquid-to-honey ratio was not known.)

The second time, I got more dramatic results. I was not intending to lighten, just modify an SMT to see if it got better results than the "traditional" one. 1 part = ~1 teaspoon
1 part (MELTED) Fox's Shea Conditioning cream (which is 1 part conditioner- I used VO5 champagne kiss, 1 part unrefined shea butter, 0.5 part oil- I used jojoba)
~1 part honey
~1 part aloe vera
~1 part additional conditioner- I used VO5 vitaburst nectarine and orange.
This was left on for 9 hours, and was not as moist as the first treatment.
Pictures:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1728c.jpg

All photos were taken in the same lighting, with the same camera. Most of my hair at the time had been dyed with a darker, redder brown shade, then colorfixed. The honey seemed to selectively remove the redder tones (which weren't natural) from my hair, which I was very happy about! The colorfix removed some of the color, but left a lot of red in.

Hope that helps!

cloeishere

Oh, I have some pictures of results.

These 2 pictures of yours too, which show the colour lightening difference even better, IMO. I record everything now, to keep track of things.
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1467778&postcount=510

Thank you so much for replying with so much information, including pictures.

I really appreciate it.

I am already getting pm replies to the honey brand name and plant source shout out.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=117273&postcount=786

Not everyone remembers what brand or knows the plant source of the honey they used - no worries - I very much appreciate each and every reply.

I will put a list together as soon as I have enough information to just need to keep adding to it.

In the meantime, since I am keeping records offline, I can still refer to the responses, if that is needed.

I've been using Sue Bee honey, which says it is clover honey. It is about medium on the scale from light to dark. The list is a great idea, thanks again ktani!

firebird

Thank you.

Without you all, there would be no Honey thread, or the previous Honey threads.

Several people have posted that for them, clover honey worked just fine.

I think it depends on the brand of clover honey - which may blend different varieties of clover honey.

I think that most of the honey that you buy is a blend of one kind or another - some are differnt plant sources - some are one plant source that is a blend of different varieties of that plant honey.

Hi, ktani and all my lovely honey-heads!

Answering the shout out.

I have done two more honey treatments since I last posted. One was the just-water (and honey and cinnamon) dealio. The other one, I tried something interesting:

I stirred the honey into water (about three parts water) and let it sit for 10 minutes. This was based on ktani's research that the more diluted, the more peroxide is released, and also the one study where the honey sat in water for quite some time before the peroxide being measured. That was based on one hour, but I was anxious to get going so I left it for 10 minutes. Then I added my cinnamon and about half a part of conditioner...just to bulk it up a bit. I haven't yet gotten around to getting that touch-up brush and I wanted the mixture to "stick"...but of course, the more diluted the better. So I split the difference that way.

I feel like it's a bit lighter, or that the red v. very dark brown "climbs" higher up from the bottom and down from the top, but I need to take a picture today in exact conditions to compare it to my Beginning photo. So that will be at 2:00 Pacific time today.

I'll post at that time and you can let me know what you think.

Thanks!

Flapjack, your hair is SO BEAUTIFUL. (fainting dead away)

p.s. Agree with ya, it was BEASTLY hot Sunday and yesterday. It's supposed to be a smidge cooler today and then tomorrow it will be in the 70s. :) I may be "hotter" than you because I'm further inland (in the SGV).





Thanks again for the kind words, ktani. :)


Okay, I have pictures from this afternoon in the sun. It was really hot today!


Here is wet hair.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008wet.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg



And 6 hours later... dry hair. I had a lot of free time today, apparently. Haha.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-20082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/newhair1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/topofhead5-2008.jpg

Hopefully this helps! I have never taken pictures of just my hair in sunlight before so it's crazy to me to see how much red has shown up in the past few years. I had no idea it was that much.

Hi, ktani and all my lovely honey-heads!

Answering the shout out.

I have done two more honey treatments since I last posted. One was the just-water (and honey and cinnamon) dealio. The other one, I tried something interesting:

I stirred the honey into water (about three parts water) and let it sit for 10 minutes. This was based on ktani's research that the more diluted, the more peroxide is released, and also the one study where the honey sat in water for quite some time before the peroxide being measured. That was based on one hour, but I was anxious to get going so I left it for 10 minutes. Then I added my cinnamon and about half a part of conditioner...just to bulk it up a bit. I haven't yet gotten around to getting that touch-up brush and I wanted the mixture to "stick"...but of course, the more diluted the better. So I split the difference that way.

I feel like it's a bit lighter, or that the red v. very dark brown "climbs" higher up from the bottom and down from the top, but I need to take a picture today in exact conditions to compare it to my Beginning photo. So that will be at 2:00 Pacific time today.

I'll post at that time and you can let me know what you think.

Thanks!

GlennaGirl

Thank you for replying to the shout out and including your latest recipes.

However, you forgot to mention the brand and or plant source of the honey, lol.

The information on the 4 parts water to 1 part honey and the 1 hour to get the maximum peroxide level, was all from the same research link.

I know that it is going to be difficult for some of you to cut back using conditioner in the honey lightening recipes but I think that you will find the results worth it.

I look forward to your new pictures.

Here is some interesting information on the different plant sources for honey. You can click on each type for more information.
http://www.honeylocator.com/search.asp

This page lets you select from the kinds of honey in the box to get information from a huge list of plant sources.
http://www.honeylocator.com/flowers.asp

Varietal or single source honey
"Varietal honeys .... single-source honeys .... one main source of nectar, such as orange blossoms or eucalyptus flowers."
http://www.chow.com/stories/10204

The scoop on varietal honey
".... it’s very unlikely that 100 percent of the honey will come from that one type of flower..."
http://www.chow.com/stories/10445

"It All Depends On Where The Bees Buzz"
"Honey is called monofloral .... derived from a dominant floral source. "blended" honey is created from a blend of several floral sources."
http://www.billybee.com/en/infocentr...rflavour.shtml

The terminology used about honey sources can be confusing, IMO.

If it is clover honey and there is more than 1 kind of clover, do all of the clover types bloom at once?

There is also the term unifloral honey - referring to a single flower source.

This is getting more complicated than wading through a conditioner ingredient list lol, but it is interesting, IMO.

GlennaGirl

Thank you for replying to the shout out and including your latest recipes.

However, you forgot to mention the brand and or plant source of the honey, lol.

The information on the 4 parts water to 1 part honey and the 1 hour to get the maximum peroxide level, was all from the same research link.

I know that it is going to be difficult for some of you to cut back using conditioner in the honey lightening recipes but I think that you will find the results worth it.

I look forward to your new pictures.

Oh, the source...I can't remember the name of the first honey I used (before these two times) but the next time I'm at the store, I'll get that name.

These most recent two times, I used Stater Brothers (grocery store) brand. :) ETA: The bottle is gone (I got a little bottle) so I don't know the plant source. I'm pretty sure it's also under the Kroger manufacturing process (someone else mentioned Ralph's, made by Kroger) so the source may be the same but again, I'll look on the store shelf and find out.

I did use the no-conditioner method for one of these most recent two lightenings so we'll see today @ 2:00 whether it made a difference.

Thanks, ktani!

GlennaGirl

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I look forward to your latest results.

Bunnyears has been using a blush brush - I think that is a great idea and it might even be more hair friendly than a tint brush - the bristles are softer.

shout out


Ktani - 4:1 liquid to honey mix with name brands:

Conditioner: Mane and Tail (but would have preferred VO5 Kiwi Lime)
Cinnamon: Simply Organic (bought at Natures grocery store)
Honey: Nature's Energy (bought at Natures grocery store)

wintersun99

Thank you so much!

I used Wegmans' brand Clover Honey successfully.

bizarrogirl

Thank you very much!

Your results were amazing, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

Ok Ktani. I have periodically (although not consistently) used a honey type treatment to lift indigo (possibly having an effect on the PPD dyed hair beneath, also).

Usually I just put about 1/4 cup of cheap non-specific runny honey (Sainsburys 'Basics' brand) in with about one tablespoon lemon juice and add to enough cone-free conditioner (any brand) to fully cover my hair. Apply to dirty/clean hair, wrap in saran and towel and leave one-two hours before rinsing.

A couple of these in a row have always given a subtle degree of 'lift' whereby the intensity of the indigo has been softened.

I've also used amla and honey. Tablespoon amla with enough hot water added to make a thickish paste, then a generous amount of runny (non-specific) honey and a bit more water - to make a workable thin paste. Apply to dirty/clean hair - saran wrap one-two hours, then rinse well. This gives a very similar effect to the honey, lemon & conditioner for me i.e. a softening of indigo build-up. However, the amla also does a lovely job of boosting thickness!

Incidently, I've also used these methods for henna only build-up, with the same success (this would be over a year ago now).

To summarise - there is no doubt in my mind that the above methods work to lift color build-up from hair (due to henna/indigo) by as much as 1/2 a shade per time. However, I have never done more than two in a row, each time, so cannot say what would happen (in my case) if I did them more frequently.

My hair is always left in good condition after these treatments, but then I have fairly strong, thick hair!

Sorry, no pics! Hope this is of some use...

Flapjack, your hair is SO BEAUTIFUL. (fainting dead away)

p.s. Agree with ya, it was BEASTLY hot Sunday and yesterday. It's supposed to be a smidge cooler today and then tomorrow it will be in the 70s. :) I may be "hotter" than you because I'm further inland (in the SGV).


Thank you! :D I think you may be having some of the best results with the honey so far, honestly.


Ohh yeah, you probably had it worse than I did. I'm a big wimp when it comes to heat with some humidity because I grew up in the desert. I'm used to that dry heat that feels like you're walking in an oven, but this sticky stuff I have trouble with, haha. Especially with the hair on the back! I'm going to have my hair up most of the summer here, I think. But in the valley there it's worse since clouds with moisture get stuck between the hills. I'm a big desert rat when it comes to weather, hahaha.

Ok Ktani. I have periodically (although not consistently) used a honey type treatment to lift indigo (possibly having an effect on the PPD dyed hair beneath, also).

Usually I just put about 1/4 cup of cheap non-specific runny honey (Sainsburys 'Basics' brand) in with about one tablespoon lemon juice and add to enough cone-free conditioner (any brand) to fully cover my hair. Apply to dirty/clean hair, wrap in saran and towel and leave one-two hours before rinsing.

A couple of these in a row have always given a subtle degree of 'lift' whereby the intensity of the indigo has been softened.

I've also used amla and honey. Tablespoon amla with enough hot water added to make a thickish paste, then a generous amount of runny (non-specific) honey and a bit more water - to make a workable thin paste. Apply to dirty/clean hair - saran wrap one-two hours, then rinse well. This gives a very similar effect to the honey, lemon & conditioner for me i.e. a softening of indigo build-up. However, the amla also does a lovely job of boosting thickness!

Incidently, I've also used these methods for henna only build-up, with the same success (this would be over a year ago now).

To summarise - there is no doubt in my mind that the above methods work to lift color build-up from hair (due to henna/indigo) by as much as 1/2 a shade per time. However, I have never done more than two in a row, each time, so cannot say what would happen (in my case) if I did them more frequently.

My hair is always left in good condition after these treatments, but then I have fairly strong, thick hair!

Sorry, no pics! Hope this is of some use...

Celebrian

Thank you so much for replying.

No worries about the pictures.

I now know that Vitamin C added to a honey lightening recipe lowers the peroxide content of the recipe (the lemon juice).

The peroxide produced by the honey or any peroxide booster oxidizes it and is depleted in doing so.

The Vitamin C content of amla has been disputed but if it does have any in it - the same result would happen with it.

The fact that your hair still lightened in spite of using these 2 ingredients in your honey lightening recipes means that the honey you used produced enough peroxide to deal with both the Vitamin C and the lightening of your hair.

If you continue to try honey lightening, please do not add any Vitamin C ingredient to your recipe, with the only exception to this being the peroxide spice booster, cardamom.

Ground cardamom has the highest peroxide level of the spices named on a list I found while researching - 100 points higher than cinnamon - which has worked beautifully to help lighten hair in honey lightening reports.

Cardamom has only a very small Vitamin C content, that IMO, would be compensated for by its peroxide level.

The lastest research and results indicate that a 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - I am currently advocating 0 conditioner in the mix - yields the best lightening results and the beauty of the new dilution is - you should only need to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour - to see better results than you had with your old dilution. You can use a tint or blush brush to apply the more liquid recipe.

The honey peroxide boosters are; cardamom, cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

Chamomile tea, preferably Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), can be used as the water in a honey lightening recipe, except when cassia is added to the mix for extra conditioning- cassia is sensitive to acids, and might yield colour (chamomile tea is acidic).

Hi, I decided a few weeks ago to start growing my henna out.

After reading alot of this thread (although I have to admit I didn't read it all!) I used a 4:1 ratio of Chamomile tea and Honey. I left it on for an hour. Rinsed, shampooed and I definatly have some lightening. Especially where the hair was previously highlighted (underneath the henna).

kimki

Thank you for your recipe and results.

Yes, the thread is growing wildly, though I keep careful records of everything and I am always willing to help out and illustrate with links of results and information if needed.

I am very pleased that you are pleased.

My standard question please - how is the condition of your hair following honey lightening?

To me, that is even more important than the lightening results.

I could not continue to do this if people were have damage results and disaters because of what I recommend.

Thank you! :D I think you may be having some of the best results with the honey so far, honestly.


Ohh yeah, you probably had it worse than I did. I'm a big wimp when it comes to heat with some humidity because I grew up in the desert. I'm used to that dry heat that feels like you're walking in an oven, but this sticky stuff I have trouble with, haha. Especially with the hair on the back! I'm going to have my hair up most of the summer here, I think. But in the valley there it's worse since clouds with moisture get stuck between the hills. I'm a big desert rat when it comes to weather, hahaha.

Me too!! Hair up every day. I have the opposite--I grew up in a very humid place--but it was only "hot hot summer" for about three weeks every year. I'm a baby about the heat too and I do whatever I can to keep cool. My hair is short enough that a high bun works for me and doesn't pull/feel too heavy. Stay cool this summer!!!

ktani, two more hours and I'll take a picture! I hope to have some good results. It's so hard to tell on oneself.

Ok, this is a shout out to:

(...)

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post.

(...)

ktani, I don't have the type/source because it doesn't say on the bottle. But the brand name is Target's: Market Pantry Honey. Comes in a little bear bottle.

And sorry, I don't have any photos to show the difference in the color change.

ktani, I don't have the type/source because it doesn't say on the bottle. But the brand name is Target's: Market Pantry Honey. Comes in a little bear bottle.

And sorry, I don't have any photos to show the difference in the color change.

blackfrostqueen

Thank you so much for replying - pictures are not important for this but are wecome anytime.

GlennaGirl

No worries.

I know I haven't had great results, but I'd like to add that I'm now using Sue Bee's unpasturized honey (was the darkest I could find) and was originally using a generic, store brand honey bear from Safeway. When I used the bear kind, my hair felt slightly crispy, and it took a few good conditioning treatments to feel better. Now, with the Sue Bee honey, its much softer and shinier.

My most recent recipe:
1/4 c honey
1 c chamomile tea
1.5 T coconut oil
1 T cinnamon
1 T cardamom

I ended up using a pastry brush to apply it, then dipped the length in the mix, bagged it, then put a turbie towel over it. Left it on for about an hour, then shampooed and conditioned the heck out of it to try to remove the spices. There is a slight color difference, my hair is now more of a 'soft black' than jet black. No pics though, sorry.

DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your new recipe and results.

At least now you are getting some results compared to no results before.

Excellent news that the change in honey has resulted in your hair feeling better.

I had a feeling that different honeys might have different residue levels - thank you for that too.

I suggest for your next treatment - lose the cinnamon - increase the cardamom - just to fill in the gap - not too much.

And switch oils - EVOO has a higher peroxide level than coconut - just lower the amount to 1 tablespoon to make it easier to wash out of the hair.

kimki

Thank you for your recipe and results.

Yes, the thread is growing wildly, though I keep careful records of everything and I am always willing to help out and illustrate with links of results and information if needed.

I am very pleased that you are pleased.

My standard question please - how is the condition of your hair following honey lightening?

To me, that is even more important than the lightening results.

I could not continue to do this if people were have damage results and disaters because of what I recommend.

I have to agree, condition is more important. My hair feels great, it actually seems to feel thicker and stronger. People commented today how shiny it looked.

I have two questions if thats ok.

Firstly, have you found that a particular type of honey gives better results?

Also if you keep using the honey, does the hair keep getting lighter? Or is only 1 shade usually?

Thank you.

DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your new recipe and results.

At least now you are getting some results compared to no results before.

Excellent news that the change in honey has resulted in your hair feeling better.

I had a feeling that different honeys might have different residue levels - thank you for that.

I suggest for your next treatment - lose the cinnamon - increase the cardamom - just to fill in the gap - not too much.
Thanks, I'll try that! I'm almost out of cardamom, I'll have to watch for when it goes on sale again, that stuff is expensive!! Otherwise I might do without the spices. I'm very excited about the change! I just want a color that'll make my transition back to just henna easier.

ETA: Is the peroxide value alot higher in EVOO? My hair isn't that fond of it, but loves coconut.

I have to agree, condition is more important. My hair feels great, it actually seems to feel thicker and stronger. People commented today how shiny it looked.

I have two questions if thats ok.

Firstly, have you found that a particular type of honey gives better results?

Also if you keep using the honey, does the hair keep getting lighter? Or is only 1 shade usually?

Thank you.

kimki

I am so glad that you hair is in good condition.

"Thicker and stronger" - the opposite of damage - excellent!

Thank you for answering my question.

Anyone can ask as many questions as they like. I will do my best to answer them all.

So far no one type of honey is standing out - clover honey did not work for mellie but alfalfa honey did.

But clover has worked well for others.

So I think the brand is significant because if you look at the honey information links a few pages back now - there is more than one kind of clover possible in honey.

Different beekeepers no doubt use different clover sources for the bees.

As to the amount of lightening - I have seen reports that are at least 2 shades lighter IMO - so there is currently no ceiling on that but I cannot say just how far honey lightening can go.

I believe I said in my Honey Article from .5 of a shade to over 1 shade is possible.

I have no way of knowing exactly - especially with the possibilities with the new dilution.

Thanks, I'll try that! I'm almost out of cardamom, I'll have to watch for when it goes on sale again, that stuff is expensive!! Otherwise I might do without the spices. I'm very excited about the change! I just want a color that'll make my transition back to just henna easier.



ETA: Is the peroxide value alot higher in EVOO? My hair isn't that fond of it, but loves coconut.


DolphinPrincess

There are different qualities of EVOO out there - but from my information - the peroxide value of it is about double that compared to other oils, including coconut oil.

Thank you very much for all your help. :)

I am going to do a few more treatments and I'll keep you informed.

Oh, wow, ok, thanks!

kimki

You are most welcome.

I look forward to reading more results from you.

The peroxide value of oils - See "Peroxide value (PV)."

"Peroxide value (PV). .... is an indication of the amount of hydroperoxides present in an oil. .... compounds arise from lipid oxidation; therefore, the PV, expressed as milliequivalent oxygen per kilogram oil (meq/kg) .... measure of oil quality. The PV .... greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils .... not exposed .... such processes and the PVs permitted .... considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils .... have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg .... pure olive oils .... by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils .... have PVs below 10 meq/kg."
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm


"Two samples A and B of the oil of coconut (Cocos nucifera) were stored for 3 months .... changes in the levels of free fatty acid and peroxide values .... monitored at monthly intervals in the 3-month period. The peroxide values .... less than 10 for either oil sample after 3 months. .... "
http://www.ajol.info/viewarticle.php?id=16064

kimki

You said that your lightening results were good - what brand and type of honey did you use, please?

Okay, ktani, well, here it is. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1730.jpg

I am thrilled...I'm really getting there!

Remember, this was:

- one water, honey and cinnamon mixture for 1 hour and 15 minutes.
- one mostly water, honey dispersed in that water for 15 minutes, then dash of conditioner and my cinnamon mixed in, for 1.5 hours.

Am I crazy or is it browner/lighter as opposed to "black"-er? And this even given that the photo seems to have turned out darker than my "before" picture overall...I mean not the hair, the rest of the picture...if you look at my arms in both photos. The one where my hair looks lighter, is actually a darker picture overall. Or am I just daydreaming?

BTW, that's my washed and nothing-done-to-it 1a hair. Blowing in the extreme wind today...it was hard to take a pic.

Cheap and dark. Got it. Thank you!

Oh man, polaris, that second picture is making me hungry.

I wanted to post a big-A picture of what I'll now call my "starting" color, although as you can see, the ends have lightened over my many treatments to the perfect roots-matching color. So from now on I'll just honey that huge center area that's brown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1704.jpg

Outdoors, no flash. During the coming weeks I'll post more pictures under exactly those circumstances and let's see if I can't get my whole head to be red!

SPECIAL NOTE: This is important for honey-ers to know. The bottom area which is much lighter than that middle area, was dark as pitch before starting honey treatments. My entire head of hair was dark as pitch, close to black. I think my honey may be dripping down or something and pooling on the ends and that's why the ends have lightened much more than the center. But before honey, my entire head of hair was nearly black with henndigo. The ends have lightened to almost red--matching the very top, which is just henna, no indigo.


GlennaGirl

I am confused - which is not difficult right now - I am a little tired.

This is your last picture with a smaller one underneath.

Your new one looks like the same picture as the 2nd smaller one - which did not make the trip over here - see the link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

If you edited this new picture into that post ok - I was going by the edit date.

Yes, the middle of the back seems less dark - less of a contrast.

Can you tell which of the 2 treatments - since you used some conditioner in one - lightened more?

I am very pleased for you - but please explain to me what I am seeing in terms of the dates.

Ktani, the picture I just posted today has become my new siggie pic. That's why you see two of the same picture...

I'm going to try to upload the pic again but bigger this time...Photobucket keeps making them smaller. Be right back...

Okay, try this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1730-1.jpg

ETA: It's blending tons better, isn't it? The contrast between roots and length? As to which treatment did more...I didn't notice a drastic difference after the first one so I would have to say they were probably about equal.

...and this one underneath...is the same picture because I'm using it as my new siggy picture.

GlennaGirl

That makes perfect sense, lol.

I never thought of that - tired won't let me out of that one, lol.

I definitely think that you are well on your way.

And now that I have recovered - thank you so much for posting the new picture and the recipes.

Any more news on the honey?

And which recipe worked best?

I was wondering I have about 1-3 inches of regrowth of roots color. I used to get my hair chemically colored at least 2 times a year, the last time was in February and I have decided not to anymore since it will be harder and more expensive as it gets longer. So my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length? Thanks for any advice??

I was wondering I have about 1-3 inches of regrowth of roots color. I used to get my hair chemically colored at least 2 times a year, the last time was in February and I have decided not to anymore since it will be harder and more expensive as it gets longer. So my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length? Thanks for any advice??

mommy2one05

You can definitely just lighten the root area if you want to do that.

I am no longer recommending honey and conditioner for lightening.

I am recommending honey with water or herb tea - chamomile or a mix of herbs like chamomile and mullein as in Mellie's Mix with peroxide boosters added, if you so choose.

The basic recipe is now 4 parts water or tea to 1 part honey.

The preferred chamomile is Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis).

Mellie's Mix - 1 cup of boiled water with 1 tablespoon each of chamomile and mullein to 1/4 cup of honey.

The peroxide boosters are; cardamom, cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

Do not add too much of the spices if you use them and mix them well into the liquid before you apply the mix with a tint or blush brush to your freshly washed wet hair and cover it, with a plastic bag - saran wrap will work as well.

You can use an oil and a spice in a treatment - 2 peroxide boosters - if you want.

For either oil, use about 1 tablespoon to start off with - they can be difficult to wash out of the hair otherwise.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higer peroxide level than coconut oil.

You should only need to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour each time.

GlennaGirl

I just read your edit - there probably was not too much difference between the 2 recipes - you did not use too much conditioner though.

I still think that conditioner is much less preferable than water or herb tea for honey lightening recipes.

I am trying to increase the odds of a honey lightening treatment being as successful as it can be.

Conditioner is not a necessary part of the recipe.

The dilution is.

Conditioners - light ones - are about 90% water - about being the operative word - and reports so far have indicated that diluting them by more than half yielded better results.

Using a conditioner to bulk up a recipe as 1 part of the 4 parts water in the dilution means at best that you are losing 10% of the water needed to get the maximum peroxide value from the honey.

Diluting a conditioner that much makes it useless for conditioning IMO.

And with some conditioners having ingredients like extra waxy ingredients and formers, that in the past have been shown in reports to be problematic for honey lightening - I do not think that they are worth the risk of including in a honey lightening recipe.

IMO, a conditioner no longer serves a purpose in honey lightening and if one contains less water than 90% - you lose that much more of the needed dilution ratio.

... my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length...

the answer would very much depend on what color you want your hair to be... lighter to match the chemically colored length, or darker to match the new root growth. If you want to go a little darker, try using Bluenko's Molasses recipe...

1/2 jar molasses
1 tsp olive oil
1 tsp rosemary oil
1 tsp tea tree oil
conditioner to cut down on stickiness, if necessary

create a sticky (not runny) paste then apply it to dry hair, double wrap with plastic and soak for no less than 1 hour.
The results are noticeable! Softeness, thickness, rich brown colour.

wintersun99

Very well said!

Blueneko's recipe IMO, is an excellent one.

GlennaGirl, your hair is definitely lightening! The darker length is less of a black and more of a dark brown, and the lighter parts are visibly lighter! Congratulations! :)


ktani, I'm sitting here right now all wrapped up in towels with my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment in my hair. :)


2nd HONEY+CINNAMON TREATMENT

I changed the recipe to reflect your new discoveries...

- 1 part honey (same Bio21 honey, supposedly orange blossom)
- 4 parts chamomile tea (which I really let cool completely this time - I added it to my 1st recipe when it was still a bit warm, which might have killed the peroxide release somewhat - didn't want to risk it this time)
- 2 tbsp ground cinnamon (same as last time)
- 1/2 tbsp coconut oil

I believe the conditioner managed to dilute the cinnamon better. This time the recipe was really hard to mix completely and I found tiny clusters of cinnamon that just wouldn't dissolve. The ones that floated I just scooped and threw out, but while I was applying the mix to my hair I found some more. My scalp did tingle a bit this time (like a menthol tingle, not painful) but it subsided quickly.

The mix was very watery, as expected, and I didn't have a tint brush, so I applied it with a large syringe. It was even less messy than applying the 1st recipe (with conditioner, much less runny) using my fingers, so that's something.

It dripped a lot for the first minute while I wrapped it and put a shower cap and towel around it, but now it stopped completely, which is odd - the 1st mix with conditioner kept running down my cheek. I truly hope it is not too dry in there at this point.

I probably shouldn't have added the coconut oil, for the sake of our scientific method. If the only altered variable was no conditioner / all chamomile tea instead we could have a better idea of how much conditioner hinders the process. But I just couldn't resist - sorry! And, lo and behold, hubby comes home now bearing a bottle of EVOO. Sigh. :D

Tomorrow I'll try and take a picture!

GlennaGirl, your hair is definitely lightening! The darker length is less of a black and more of a dark brown, and the lighter parts are visibly lighter! Congratulations! :)


ktani, I'm sitting here right now all wrapped up in towels with my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment in my hair. :)


2nd HONEY+CINNAMON TREATMENT

I changed the recipe to reflect your new discoveries...

- 1 part honey (same Bio21 honey, supposedly orange blossom)
- 4 parts chamomile tea (which I really let cool completely this time - I added it to my 1st recipe when it was still a bit warm, which might have killed the peroxide release somewhat - didn't want to risk it this time)
- 2 tbsp ground cinnamon (same as last time)
- 1/2 tbsp coconut oil

I believe the conditioner managed to dilute the cinnamon better. This time the recipe was really hard to mix completely and I found tiny clusters of cinnamon that just wouldn't dissolve. The ones that floated I just scooped and threw out, but while I was applying the mix to my hair I found some more. My scalp did tingle a bit this time (like a menthol tingle, not painful) but it subsided quickly.

The mix was very watery, as expected, and I didn't have a tint brush, so I applied it with a large syringe. It was even less messy than applying the 1st recipe (with conditioner, much less runny) using my fingers, so that's something.

It dripped a lot for the first minute while I wrapped it and put a shower cap and towel around it, but now it stopped completely, which is odd - the 1st mix with conditioner kept running down my cheek. I truly hope it is not too dry in there at this point.

I probably shouldn't have added the coconut oil, for the sake of our scientific method. If the only altered variable was no conditioner / all chamomile tea instead we could have a better idea of how much conditioner hinders the process. But I just couldn't resist - sorry! And, lo and behold, hubby comes home now bearing a bottle of EVOO. Sigh. :D

Tomorrow I'll try and take a picture!

LadyPolaris

Not all conditioners have hindered honey lightening results in the past - the results though were not as good as they have been reported to be with the new dilution, especially with the 1 hour only timing per treatment.

And I think that they can hinder the process now, with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, through their water content and possibly their ingredients.

I do not believe that a conditioner can dissolve cinnamon - it just might help it feel a little less gritty.

Warm chamomile tea should not affect the honey's peroxide.

Cool tea - room temperature - is better though.

I look forward to your latest results - hopefully with a sunshine picture - were you able to take a sunshine before picture?

No, no sunshine these past few days in this part of the world, I'm afraid. I hope I have better luck on the next pictures. I think I'm going to do these honey+cinnamon treatments for a long while, so I'll be taking a good number of photos in the future. :)

ktani, is there any evidence at all against or in favor of leaving the treatment in for more than 1 hour? Does the peroxide just keep going for as long as your patience allows?

Thank you :)

LadyPolaris

I did not mean to imply that after an hour the peroxide degrades.

I just do not think that leaving the treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour is necessary.

Most people are leaving it on longer than 1 hour exactly.

It really is up to you.

There has not been any indication that it is a problem to do so.

However, the results reported when the treatment is left on the hair close to 1 hour indicates that 1 hour is sufficient.

I think that you could also switch from cinnamon to cardamom as a spice booster, after patch testing it first.

I think that it is a better choice. I do not think that it is potentially as much of an irritant and it might yield even better results.

LadyPolaris, I can't wait to see how your hair comes out.

What do you all think of my using a spray bottle? Would the cinnamon "grits" be tiny enough to get through the sprayer along with the water/honey?

GlennaGirl

For you definitely not - only because you want the treatment to be mostly on one area of your hair.

And for you as well - try cardamom instead of cinnamon. Patch test it first though.

DolphinPrincess has been using it mixed with cinnamon with no problems and she is seeing results for the first time.

I want to increase results for everyone and decrease or eliminate the negative variables - like possible cinnamon irritation and conditioner hindrance.

Ktani, I'm sitting here with a slightly altered mix, as per your suggestions.

1 C chamomile tea
1/4 C honey
2 T cardamom
1 T EVOO

I really hope to get some sunlight pictures soon, but i live in the pacific northwestm not much sun here.

DolphinPrincess

No worries about the sunshine or the pictures.

How is your scalp/skin?

I am very pleased for you that you are finally seeing the light - pun intended and I mean your latest results, lol.

Please keep me updated regarding any irritation.

That is a concern for me with you - especially after that horrible cinnamon result.

Good luck with this treatment!

DolphinPrincess

No worries about the sunshine or the pictures.

How is your scalp/skin?

I am very pleased for you that you are finally seeing the light - pun intended and I mean your latest results, lol.

Please keep me updated regarding any irritation.

That is a concern for me with you - especially after that horrible cinnamon result.

Good luck with this treatment!

Haha, thanks! Its been on for about 20 minutes, no irritation. I imagine that it would've already showed up by now, right? Oh, and I did a clarifying shampoo by adding some baking soda to my diluted shampoo. I know that baking soda lifts the cuticle, so I was thinking that maybe I could get more color lift that way. :shrug: Worth a shot.

DolphinPrincess

I am not a fan of baking soda but between the honey and the chamomile, I think that your hair will be fine - baking soda if it is not well diluted can be abrasive - not cuticle friendly.

I do think that in 20 minutes, irritation would have shown up by now, especially with so liquid a recipe.

I am relieved and happy for you.

Thank you for posting the recipe.

I have to go offline soon - but I will be back later.

All the best.

DolphinPrincess

I am not a fan of baking soda but between the honey and the chamomile, I think that your hair will be fine - baking soda if it is not well diluted can be abrasive - not cuticle friendly.

I do think that in 20 minutes, irritation would have shown up by now, especially with so liquid a recipe.

I am relieved and happy for you.

Thank you for posting the recipe.

I have to go offline soon - but I will be back later.

All the best.

I normally wouldn't use baking soda, but trying it out once shouldn't hurt, right?

DolphinPrincess

No, I do not think that trying it once should do any harm.

It is alkaline but not drastically so - pH 8.

If the condition of your hair this time is not as soft - that could be the reason but I do not believe that the results will be lasting, from reports that I have read about it.

No point in stressing over it - the odds IMO, are that everything will be just fine.

I am signing off now.

Relax and enjoy the next 40 odd minutes or so.

I look forward to reading how it goes.

LadyPolaris

I did not mean to imply that after an hour the peroxide degrades.

I just do not think that leaving the treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour is necessary. (...)

I think that you could also switch from cinnamon to cardamom as a spice booster, after patch testing it first.

I think that it is a better choice. I do not think that it is potentially as much of an irritant and it might yield even better results.

Got it. :) I think I'm doing these 3 hour treatments more out of habit (used to leaving henna in for hours on end) than out of logic, but as long as it doesn't do any harm I'll probably keep them 2 or 3 hours long.

I'd love to try cardamom. Next time I go by spices I'll try to find some! I'm not sure if it's sold here though, I never looked for it before.


LadyPolaris, I can't wait to see how your hair comes out.

What do you all think of my using a spray bottle? Would the cinnamon "grits" be tiny enough to get through the sprayer along with the water/honey?

Thank you :) I can't wait either! Hopefully tomorrow will bring some good light in so I can post a better picture.

The cinnamon grits were enough to clog from time to time the nozzle of that large syringe I was using to put the mix in my hair. I think a spray bottle wouldn't get the little bits through at all... sorry! But the spray bottle is an excellent idea, much more practical. Maybe cardamom won't be so gritty?

I was curious about honey for lightening and decided to try it... I kind of ended up mad scientist like and didn't follow the recipes though...

1 ounce of honey
1 ounce of extra virgin olive oil
1 teaspoon of cinnamon
2 ounces of water
and just cause it was there and I like the smell, 1/4 teaspoon of ground cloves

I haven't washed it out yet... but it smells good!

I was curious about honey for lightening and decided to try it... I kind of ended up mad scientist like and didn't follow the recipes though...

1 ounce of honey
1 ounce of extra virgin olive oil
1 teaspoon of cinnamon
2 ounces of water
and just cause it was there and I like the smell, 1/4 teaspoon of ground cloves

I haven't washed it out yet... but it smells good!

Gabriel

Thank you for posting your recipe.

I wish you luck with this - the recipe is a bit heavy on the oil and IMO, 50% short on the water needed to achieve maximum potential lightening but it does sound like it would smell very good. Depending on the honey, I think you can get lightening from it, if you keep the treatment wet while it is on your hair - covering your hair with plastic is recommended.

Please let me know how it goes.

The Successful Honeys List - honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand is important too - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.

Australia
Jarrah honey

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Italy
black locust honey

North America
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart
Billy Bee clover honey

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wild Flower honey

U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry Honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover Honey

Western Family Clover Honey

I am making another new recommendation.

Because it has not been reported to be irritating so far, and because of its very high peroxide level (compared to other spices), I now recomend using cardamom instead of cinnamon.

I am trying to eliminate potential problems with honey lightening.

Conditioners were the first problem, with possible ingredients that could interfere with lightening and now with their water content.

Eliminating conditioners from the recipes solves both problems. They no longer serve a purpose in the recipes with the new dilution, IMO.

Cinnamon irritation has been mentioned in reports frequently. Thankfully, the problem has been temporary but to me, it is troubling.

Replacing cinnamon with cardamom makes sense to me at this time.

DolphinPrincess has used cardamom a few times now in her mixes, even in the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilutions, with no reported problems, to date.

She had major irritation previously from using cinnamon, that cleared up quickly but was alarming.

Cardamom may even take honey lightening to the next level.

Please do not use too much cardamom until you know how well you can tolerate it and of course, patch test it first.

Cardamom has traditionally been used to whiten teeth and freshen breath (chewing the seeds) and has been used to treat redness on skin.

POV - Peroxide value of spices. Cardamom has the highest peroxide level listed here - its small Vitamin C content IMO, should be compensated for by its POV. The other spices listed with high POV's can be irritants.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

Just wanted to add, I tried a second treatment tonight but this time with Cinnamon as I didn't have any Cardamom. I found it very irritating too. My scalp got sore quite quickly.

Also, I used a mister for the last treatment and I found it worked very well. This time it got clogged almost immediately.

Just wanted to add, I tried a second treatment tonight but this time with Cinnamon as I didn't have any Cardamom. I found it very irritating too. My scalp got sore quite quickly.

Also, I used a mister for the last treatment and I found it worked very well. This time it got clogged almost immediately.

kimki

Thank you for posting that.

How does your scalp feel now?

Cinnamon can be a problem.

The mister might not work with cardamom for application.

I think the trade off though in results will be worth using a tint or blush brush instead, before covering the hair with plastic - a bag or wrap.

I do not recommend misting an uncovered treatment to keep it moist - for those who do so as a method.

The hair needs to be wet without interruption IMO, covered with plastic, during the treatment.

kimki

Thank you for posting that.

How does your scalp feel now?

Cinnamon can be a problem.

The mister might not work with cardamom for application.

I think the trade off though in results will be worth using a tint or blush brush instead, before covering the hair with plastic - a bag or wrap.

I do not recommend misting an uncovered treatment to keep it moist - for those who use this method.

The hair needs to be wet without interruption IMO, covered with plastic, during the treatment.

My scalp is fine now thank you. But I did rinse with quite a bit of cold water before it stopped stinging. With the mister the other day, I put the mix in the mister, stood over the sink and used it to spray all over, massaging it in. Then I covered the hair with cling film. Perhaps a brush would work better as I am trying to concentrate on the henna round the back of my hair as my roots are actually a little blonder.

kimki

I am glad to read that you like others, suffered no lasting effects from cinnamon irritation.

However, do not use cinnamon again IMO, if you run out of cardamom.

Replace it with a bit of extra virgin olive oil if you can or coconut oil or do without a peroxide booster.

I think that using chamomile tea as the water base wih cardaomom is a good idea - it counters irritation and may contribute to ligtening.

I think because you massaged in the mix, that may have helped cause extra irritation with the cinnamon.

What I love about the brush technique - is the control factor - you can put the honey lightening treatment where you want it to be on your hair.

Thank you Ktani I will be getting some more cardamom instead. It's a shame because I really like the smell of the cinnamon.

kimki

So do I but it is better to eat it than wear it - and from the increasing number of irritation reports - suffer because of it.

After my treatment last night, I have definite lightening. Hopefully I'll get pictures today or tomorrow. I just want to add that cardamom washes/rinses out of hair MUCH easier than cinnamon! However, for $10 a bottle, I have to use it sparingly.

DolphinPrincess

I am absolutely thrilled for you!

From the start when I saw that spice list and researched cardamom, I believed it might be a better choice than cinnamon.

But it needed testing.

That is where all of you come in.

The research pointed the way - I would never recommend something with serious problems - and cinnamon at first yielded great reported results in this thread when mixed with honey, in a lightening treatment.

The research indicated that it might be a problem for skin, but the reports had not shown that to be the case at first.

I am so pleased that cardamom is proving itself.

Quick question if I may ktani. I know your keeping some records of peoples results.

How many people have reported lightening from honey compared to those who notice no difference?

Just curious. :)

Okay, today we had a sliver of sunlight! (Not enough for a beautiful direct sunlight picture though!) I took the photo in the same conditions as the first one, for consistency.

Here's my first picture - one day after my 1st honey+cinnamon treatment. My 4 parts water were actually 2 parts conditioner, 2 parts warm chamomile tea. 2tbsp cinnamon, no other additives. Bio21 honey (supposedly orange blossom). Left on for 3 hours.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/4da56c3f.jpg


And here's my second picture - one day after my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment. I used all 4 parts cool chamomile tea this time, 2tbsp cinnamon like last time PLUS 1/2 tbsp coconut oil. Same Bio21 honey. Left on for 3 hours as well.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/5c071ad1.jpg


I can definitely see the henna fading away into an orange fox fur color. The rest of my hair seems to be slowly becoming less of a medium-dark ashy brown and more of a medium warm brown. :joy:

Many thanks to ktani for her research!

kimki

That is a difficult question to answer without giving you some background.

I now know much more about how to get honey lightening to work and work better than in the previous 4 Honey threads.

It is not just the honey itself than can produce little peroxide - it is the dilution - it was the possibly the conditioner previously and it definitely is the method that can make the difference in successful honey lightening.

Also previously, I did not know about the effect Vitamin C would have in a honey lightening recipe.

All of these things could have played a part in unsuccessful honey lightening results.

So, to cut to the chase - there have been more successful reported cases of honey lightening in the Honey threads than not or the threads would not have continued.

How many of the unsuccessful cases could be turned around now?

I'd say most of them IMO, but I cannot give you a number or an exact count - and with the new information I think that there will be many more successful honey lightening reports.

LadyPolaris

I am so pleased for you that the lightening has taken your gorgeous hennaed hair from burgundy to more of an orange/red shade.

I see no burgundy colour at all.

Thank you as well for the pictures.

I think that in a chamomile tea base with just cardamom, honey and a bit of extra virgin olive oil - you will get even better results.

Ktani thank you for an excellent response, I didn't think of it like that. :)

LadyPolaris I can see a definate change too. Beautiful hair.

LadyPolaris

I am so pleased for you that the lightening has taken your gorgeous hennaed hair from burgundy to more of an orange/red shade.

Thank you as well for the pictures.

I think that in a chamomile tea base with just cardamom, honey and a bit of extra virgin olive oil - you will get even better results.

You are too kind! :o

The recipe you suggested is exactly what I plan on doing next! I have the EVOO now (thanks hubby!). I just have to hunt for some cardamom. I wonder if fresh cardamom as opposed to less-than-fresh ground cardamom will make a huge difference... let's see what I can find. :) Trying to increase that peroxide release!

I wonder if the food thickeners some ladies use in their henna recipes would be usable in our honey lightening recipe. Lawsone is a tough cookie in comparison to our shy peroxide concentration.

Also, this mix was rather hard to wash off the hair - I had to use conditioner to get it all out (although not nearly as much conditioner as I go through when I wash henna out!). I didn't need anything to wash off the former 2-part conditioner recipe, well, except for water! I wonder if our current recipe is moisturizing enough on the hair - specially now that we're trying to really bring out some more peroxide. I'm afraid to add pure aloe vera gel, essential oils etc., as they may tamper with the peroxide release.

LadyPolaris I can see a definate change too. Beautiful hair.

:o Thank you so much!! I'm so glad there's a noticeable change! It's an excellent motivation to keep doing these great treatments. And thank you for the very kind compliment, it means a lot coming from someone with such gorgeous tresses! :)

After my treatment last night, I have definite lightening. Hopefully I'll get pictures today or tomorrow. I just want to add that cardamom washes/rinses out of hair MUCH easier than cinnamon! However, for $10 a bottle, I have to use it sparingly.


LadyPolaris

As you can see, the cardamom should be easier to wash out as an added bonus using it instead of cinnamon and there was no reported irritation, using it with chamomile tea.

I have read that it is better to buy the cardamom pods and grind the seeds yourself.

However, I have also read that good quaity ground cardamom can be bought for a reasonable price.

It is up to you.

As for the price - it may be more expensive than cinnamon but you are trading better results IMO, for a difficult, irritating product and you will possibly be saving money as well by no longer needing to use conditioner in the honey lightening treatment recipes.

Previously with cinnamon and conditioner in her honey lightening recipes, DolphinPrincess was not getting lightening results.

The new dilution, 4 parts water to 1 part honey - or in this case herbal tea (chamomile) + cardamom and EVOO (extra virgin oive oil) has turned that around.

DolphinPrincess's current recipe -1 cup chamomile tea, 1/4 cup honey, 2 tablespoons cardamom, 1 tablespoon EVOO.

Oh, that's awesome info! Thank you ktani for the very quick clarification! :) It's great to know that cardamom washes out more easily. I cannot wait to get my hands in some - let's see what quality cardamom I can find!

LadyPolaris

You are most welcome.

Cardamom

"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...

Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...

Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."

It appears that both the brown or black and the green forms of cardamom are used in medicine and food although the black or brown is reported to have a more "astringent aroma". See "Uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom)



and this It is recommended that one buy cardamom in the pods and then grind the seeds. Note: The substitutes named in the link below are for recipe flavour - nutmeg is an irritant and ground clove has a comparatively (to cinnamon or cardamom) very low peroxide value.

"It best to buy cardamom seeds still encased in their natural flavor-protecting pods .... discard after you remove the seeds. You can also buy cardamom without the pods, called cardamom seeds = decorticated cardamom .... the unprotected seeds lose flavor quickly. Ground cardamom seeds ... less flavorful .... Recipes that call for cardamom ... intend for you to use green cardamom ... named for the green pods .... Some producers bleach the green hulls to a pale tan .... this makes them less aromatic. .... Equivalents: One pod yields 1/6 teaspoon cardamom."
http://www.foodsubs.com/SpiceUniv.html#cardamom



Wiki though, has this to say on ground cardamom.

".... high-quality ground cardamom is often more readily (and cheaply) available, and is an acceptable substitute."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

An encore of notes on cardamom.

Cardamom was reported in the source on the peroxide level of spices, to have the highest level of all of the spices named.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

Cardamom can be an irritant too but it appears that it may be less of one than cinnamon.

Turmeric can yield a bright yellow colour and nutmeg has irritant propertis too.

See "Adverse Reactions" for nutmeg
"Allergy, contact dermatitis, and asthma have been reported..."
http://www.drugs.com/npp/nutmeg.html



Cardamom and skin

This is one of the 2 common types of cardamom
“Contact sensitivity to cardamom and to certain terpenoid compounds … in the dried seeds was reported …
No evidence has been presented of irritation from Oil of Cardamom in perfumes …” Note: A constituent of cinnamon oil is the major irritant reported but it is not peroxide.
http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html (http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html)

Spice factory workers and skin irritation - cinnamon was found to be a common irritant. Half of the workers reported skin irritation symptoms from different spices.
“Irritant patch test reactions were seen from powders of cardamom …”
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod)

“cardamom. Terpene … major constituents … can be a skin irritant and sensitizer.”
http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND (http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND)

Cardamom may be a better choice than cinnamon as a honey lightening booster although again - caution is recommended.

"Contact dermatitis ... reported after single exposure and repeated use of cinnamon...." See "Adverse Reactions" Note: I have posted this link and information before - reports in this thread on the overuse of cinnamon and in the cinnamon thread support this information.
http://www.drugs.com/npp/cinnamon.html



Cardamom
"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...
Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...
Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

Cardamom safety from the source on the peroxide values of spices. Note: the reference is for theraputic doses, not topical use, specifically.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&l