Re: mullein; I added it because my herb book said it has "brightening" properties.

P.S. I tried a chamomile/honey/cinnamon treatment last weekend, and although it left a wonderful smell, it didn't lighten for me.

Yes it curdled with no heat. I made my mixture and everything was going fine then I decided to add a bit more conditioner and suddenly it curdled - I guess I tipped the acid balance...

I'll try the honey on roots thing next week ( I only wash my hair once every 7-10 days in the winter) and see what that does, I don't want to stress out the highlighted section of my hair, its already been through so much.

Anlbe

Thank you for the clarification.

I was wrong in my understanding of curdling. "The increased acidity causes the milk proteins ... to tangle into solid masses, or "curds"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curd

I should have looked it up first. So it is not the heating of an SMT that causes the mix to curdle.

Honey lightening treatments have not been reported to stress out or damage hair - hi-lighted or otherwise - with the exception of one report and the interpretation of the effect, referred to in that report as "fried" ends - that followed the treatment. That result, I believe, was caused by residue - the hair was being washed at the time and after the treatment, with WO (water only).

The hair was not lightened in that report. That is why I do not believe that the peroxide of the honey used was the cause of that result. The mix was not drippy - leading me to also believe that the honey was not diluted well enough to produce very much peroxide. The plant source may not have allowed the honey to produce much peroxide in any case.

The conditioner used may have contained ingredients that did not allow any peroxide produced by the honey to have an effect. Certain thicker conditioners have been reported not to work well with a honey, that has been reported to lighten hair, when used with other conditioners.

The result described as crunchy or dry ends has been reported following honey lightening treatments but the result has not been reported as damage. The issue has been resolved by washing the hair with shampoo or using a vinegar rinse following the treatment. Honey can leave a residue on the hair.

mellie

In the original recipes on a cinnamon lightening treatment that I read - it was just cinnamon and conditioner - the conditioner helping the cinnamon to adhere better to the hair.

Perhaps in a diluted honey herb mix, the cinnamon does not adhere to the hair well - just a guess - although with honey being sticky even when diluted it is hard to know.

firebird's first honey cinnamon recipe had the added booster EVOO, as well as conditioner in the mix.

Cinnamon and conditioner only has been reported to lighten slowly as can honey and conditioner only.

Honey can also lighten hair gradually with other additives - results do vary.

This is the result of my honey/cinnamon/conditioner treatment today. I left it on for 5 hours. I'm reposting my previous picture to allow easier comparison of before and after, I hope that's ok.

Before:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/2xhoney.jpg

After 5 hours honey and cinnamon:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/3xhoney.jpg

Why can't I get it to lie nicely in pictures? :P This time, I put the mixture mainly on my darker, new growth (about above my ears?) as I'm trying to get this to blend better with the lighter, dyed hair I'm growing out. This mixture had no EVOO, but only because I ran out last night. I think I got more lightening with the EVOO added, though now I don't think the EVOO benefited the condition of my hair - now it feels just as soft and moisturised but without the residual oiliness from the EVOO. The cinnamon seemed to stick pretty well, I mixed everything in a bowl first and it was definitely still on my hair when I rinsed as it felt 'gritty' and I needed to rinse more than usual to get rid of it. I'm really happy with the continued lightening and how my hair is looking less obviously two-toned:)

firebird

Of course it is ok to repost your pictures - I have reposted them 2 times already because the thread is now 26 pages long lol, and because the results with your first honey cinnamon recipe were really amazing, as I have said.

Thank you so much for the feedback and pictures of the new results. Your hair looks even more amazing - much more blended and it looks just fine to me in terms of how it is arranged.

I am also glad to read that the condition of your hair is just as good this time but without the oiliness - a bonus.

I agree that EVOO can be messy and leave an oily residue - that is why I recommend not using too much of it or any oil in a recipe - last time you used about 20% - as you said yourself - it was too much - you could still add a bit.

However it does not look as though you need to - it is just an option. You could add another spice instead or try a bit of coconut oil - it may not be as greasy - if you want a 2nd booster in the recipe.

Thank you ktani :) I'm going to continue with the honey treatments of just the new growth. Coconut oil sounds a good idea if it's less greasy, I would also like to experiment with it for oiling my ends, so it sounds like that'll be my next hair-purchase!

firebird

It is the coconut oil in coconut cream and milk that has a peroxide value. Going by the results in the link below, I think that it will be much easier to buy coconut oil for a honey lightening recipe than either coconut cream or milk. I will recommend coconut oil instead in the future.

The peroxide value of coconut oils can vary and would not be has high as that of EVOO, but I have no doubt that EVOO peroxide values vary too.

Coconut oil was reported to work very well here - you do not need to use as much oil as there is in this recipe - use much much less IMO, to begin with.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215

I once thought home testing honey for its peroxide value was not necessary - that most honey purchased would yield enough peroxide for experimenting with honey lightening treatments, even with the 15% chance of buying a honey that would yield too little peroxide to be effective.

As I have said, there are many honeys on the market that produce enough peroxide IMO, to do just that.

However, with the information below to help, I now think that it is an option.

How to test honey for its peroxide value.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

Where to buy peroxide test strips - you only need the ones for testing food, IMO.
http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/cgi-bin/hydroponics/search/keywords-peroxide%20test%20strips (http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/cgi-bin/hydroponics/search/keywords-peroxide%20test%20strips)


I think the information here helps put the subject in perspective.

Effective peroxide values of honey - tests done for antibacterial applications.
To give you an idea, Canadian honeys tested produced a peroxide value of 15 mg per gram - EVOO can produce a value of up to 20 meq/kg.
http://c-bisqt.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5136

Peroxide values of vegetable and olive oils - See "Peroxide value"
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm

POV - Peroxide value of cinnamon and other spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:

http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/beforeamla.jpg

After one treatment:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honeylemon.jpg

After another one:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honey4.jpg

My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

I checked with mellie - these results were on henndigoed hair.

Mellie later posted that the chamomile used was Roman chamomile - Anthemis nobilis.

OMG. Ktani, once again, thank you. I'm going to try these ideas. What a gorgeous difference on Mellie's hair (hi, Mellie! I'm a Meli too).

Thank you so, so much for all your work on this, ktani. I'm not gonna chop after all. :) Even if I can't get it all one color, someone mentioned in my post above to perhaps re-henna just to darken the top a tiny smidge and make it all blend better, and someone else mentioned indigo streaks to blend...I'll consider both of those and in the meantime I may try Mellie's Mix if I can find some coconut oil.

GlennaGirl

You are most welcome but the credit really goes to Mellie and the others for their recipes.

Mellie's Mix does not contain coconut oil - Javadandy's recipe does - both recipes worked on henndigoed hair - and there is Viviane's coconut cream and honey recipe - reported to work on henndigoed hair even better than the honey tomato recipe she created - you can use coconut oil instead of coconut cream for that one - there is hope.

ETA: I think the post you were referring to is in your thread - I posted there too - it can be confusing, lol.

The 3 honey lightening recipes reported to work well on henndigoed hair. Each recipe has different ingredients and proportions.


Viviane's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread.
"The Recipe: equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and condition if desired.
The conditioner can be left out of the recipe if desired, or a preferred conditioner is hard to obtain, and water added to ensure that there is enough moisture to dilute the honey.
In this recipe, the coconut cream provides a peroxide boost."
Coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream - it is the part of the coconut cream that has the peroxide value.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38


Javadandy's recipe
"I tried a honey, conditioner and coconut oil treatment on the hair. About 50/20/30. It was a little runny, I used a cheapy rosemary conditioner I bought a while back from Sam's Club."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215


Mellie's Mix
"chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
Note: mellie later confirmed, that the species of chamomile she used was Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), and that these results were on henndigoed hair.
View pictures here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

I think it is very interesting to read that for mellie, clover honey did not work for her but alfalfa honey did. It reinforces the issue of the plant source determining the peroxide value of honey, to me.

I just need to post a warning to anyone who is using or plans on using spices in their lightening recipes. Even if you have had no reaction to previous recipes, be sure to patch test every time! I have used several different mixes that contained cinnamon, nutmeg, and cardamom. Last night I used a treatment that only contained cinnamon, just a little bit more than usual. I applied it to my hair in the shower, planning to just leave it on for a little bit. I immediately felt a little burning on the back of my neck, so I just rinsed my neck and washed it with a bit of soap, pulling my hair up out of the way. I finished the rest of my shower, then rinsed my hair, and shampooed and conditioned, then got out. I wrapped my hair up, then went to dry off when I noticed my upper back and neck were a little tender and very warm. I looked in the mirror to see this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/001-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/002-2.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/005-1.jpg
The redness was even brighter in person! I applied aloe gel, and lots of it, and thankfully there was no redness left this morning, but it sure freaked me out!

DolphinPrincess

I am so sorry that this happened to you!

I am glad to read that you recovered quickly.

Thank you for posting about it and for the pictures.

I have cautioned about overdoing the spice boosters and patch testing previously.

Those warnings cannot be repeated too often, IMO.

Cinnamon has been reported to have caused irritation for someone else, in the cinnamon thread.

Cinnamon is known as an irritant and sensitizer - quantities do matter.

See, it was also the first time I'd put a treatment on my hair and then let it fall on my back, usually I put it in my hair while bending over the tub, and it never actually touches skin, until much later when I rinse it out. I'm sure I'll still use it again, just not with it touching my back! I'm just glad the aloe helped. Maybe I should go copy and paste my post into the cinnamon thread....

DolphinPrincess

From a post I read of yours in another thread, cinnamon has not given you much lightening.

I recommend, since you are so sensitive to it, that you leave it out of further honey lightening recipes and either try another spice - like cardamom - after careful patch testing or another recipe altogether.

Why run the risk of cinnamon getting on your scalp, when the results that you got from using it were minimal to none?

I know firebird's results are wonderful, but her hair is not henndigoed, like yours.

Why not try a recipe that has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair?

ETA: There are 3 recipes reported to work well on henndigoed hair so far. One recipe may work better for you than another. The ingredients and proportions are different in each of them.

Definitely no more cinnamon for me. I think I will try to find some alfalfa honey, or at least some kind of blend. I ran out last night, so I need to pick some up anyway, then I'll try the coconut oil mix. I'll be using my test strand though, as my hair hasn't been all that happy with me after my last couple honey treatments. It gets better after the second wash, a couple days later though. I just don't want to over-do it with something that may not work on my hair anyway.

Originally Posted by mellie
I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:



After one treatment:


After another one:


My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

Wow! That is some difinate lightening! You went from an almost black to a medium brown! Thanks for sharing your recipe, I will certainly try it! :)

Did you notice any dryness in your hair after the treatment, or did it acutally help your hair too (how good could it get! :)).

Thanks Druid of Alba!

It actually helped my hair, it gave it wonderful softness and shine! :-)

Just question - why is that the honey treatment seems to lighten more on the lengths but not really on the roots ? Is it because those using it do not put on the roots - or is it lifting color only where there was color before ?
I want to do a few more, but not keen on having several demarcations....

waidz

I definitely think that is has to do with where the honey lightening treatment is placed.

However, if the length has been coloured - processed - not hennaed or henndigoed, then that area may lighten more, IMO.

Have a look at firebird's results when she concentrated the honey lightening treatment on the root area to help her colour blend better - it worked.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

Waidz, I would say that mine lightened all over (on top too), it may just be looking otherwise in the photo. There was definitely no demarcation line.

mellie

Thanks - I was wondering about that.

Usually, there is less colour in the root area - less added colour.

There are variables though - how someone applies their colour etc., and how often.

I know of someone who colours their hair every 2-3 weeks.

Waidz, ktani is right about my results - in my 'before' picture, I have a line due to growing out lighter dye. I put honey really only on the new growth now so that the demarcation is becoming less obvious. I would agree with ktani that if hair has previously been dyed it will lighten more with honey. If you don't have a demarcation in your hair already, I don't think you need to worry about honey creating one as the results are generally subtle and accummulate gradually with repeated treatments.

Viviane got great results on her henndigoed hair with her honey coconut cream recipe.

However, she stopped using indigo and still continued to use henna - glosses on the length and honey treatments.

Her length continued to lighten to a dark red - it moved past the brown stage - slowly - but her roots were still lighter.

That makes sense to me - I have never used henna - her root area had less henna layers on it and no indigo.

firebird

I have never coloured my hair either with anything stonger than toners, which included an activating lotion at one point that did contain a bit of peroxide, a long time ago.

Honey lightening treatments can lighten gradually.

What surprised me about your honey cinnamon lightening treatment results was the amount of lightening that you got from just one treatment first, and then even more with the second treatment, concentrated mostly on the root area.

Firebird

These are your first results - the first picture here after using honey lightening, shows a nice colour - there is no before for that one.
The second picture, after just one honey cinnamon lightening treatment, shows an amazing difference.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

Your first honey cinnamon recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48669&postcount=163

and your most recent results - even more amazing, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

Here are some interesting notes from the link on home testing a honey for its peroxide value. There are spelling errors but the information is good, IMO.

"If honey .... is mix with 4 times that amount of water ... glucose-oxidase will generate hydrogen-peroxide ..."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

Now, that does not mean that you need to mix the honey with only water as part of a honey lightening treatment - light conditioners have a fair amount of water in them but it goes to what has been said here often.

There needs to be enough moisture in a mix, to make the honey in a treatment effective (if it can produce enough peroxide to begin with) - to attempt to lighten hair.

The hair must also be covered with plastic - a wrap or bag - to maintain moisture, to ensure the best results possible. Honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution.

A dark honey - a blend is a good choice - alfalfa honey has been reported to be very good - should be fine. The honey does not have to be raw or expensive.

Also note
"After 1 hour of weating, ... maximum amount of hydrogen-peroxide is present"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

The minimum time recommended for a honey lightening treatment given here is one hour. That means to me, while a honey lightening treatment can be left on the hair for longer periods of time, it is not necessary to do so for the maximum results wanted.

For example, mellie reported great results with her first Mellie's Mix treatment with alfalfa honey, left on her henndigoed hair, for approximately 1.5 hours. The treatments can be repeated and with this timing IMO, are more convenient.

This has been said before in the Honey threads and the Honey Article, based on previous reported results. Maluhia was the first to report successful honey lightening treatments with only1 hour timing, and she did not intentionally lighten her colour-treated hair. She used the treatments for conditioning, washing with them as an SMT, unmicrowaved, without aloe in the mix. Maluhia left the mix on her hair for 1 hour at a time, every 2-3 days, for approximately 1 month.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

Maluhia's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread
"Colour-Treated Hair
The Recipe: 1/2 cup of equal parts of Alberto VO5 Honeydew Smoothie and Kiss My Face conditioners mixed together, 1 1/2 tablespoons honey
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair as a shampoo, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for 1 hour, rinse and apply the vinegar rinse.
The Vinegar Rinse: 1 teaspoon of white vinegar to 24 oz of water
Leave this on the hair for 30 seconds to 1 minute and rinse. It removes possible residue from the treatment and can be used with any of the recipes.
The timing and vinegar rinse made this recipe and method unique. The treatment needs to be done frequently and results can be gradual but it is more convenient and changed the timing for all of the recipes. Previously, 8 hours was the time that was thought to be necessary to leave a honey lightening treatment on the hair to achieve results."

The link information has the answer as to why timing a honey lightening treatment for only1 hour or a bit more is all that is really required.
In retrospect, honey lightening treatments, timed for only 1 hour, may not need to be done frequently, to achieve the results desired.

Please help me because I read all these pages and I have a lot in my mind...I love this thread,I was desperately looking for golden highlights in my hair and get rid of my red ones.
Can I do the honey treatement every week?Why do I need to cover my hair with a plastic cap?If I keep the mix in my hair more then 2 hours do I need to spray some water on it?If I add cassia obovata to the mix would it give me the same results??Sorry for all the question,but this is a very interesting thread.

Sissilonghair

I am glad to read that you are enjoying the thread.

I just completed adding information to the post above yours, and then I clarified the information, adding more information from here.

It has the information you need in more detail.

Briefly

1. You can do the treatment as often as you want, IMO. No one has reported trashed hair that required chopping except one report, and the person trimmed only 1/2 of an inch of hair, from the ends. I believe that was a residue problem, not damage.
In that report, the poster stated that she used water only to wash her hair at the time - honey can leave a residue.
No one else in 5 threads, including the Honey Article, has reported damaged hair from a honey lightening treatment.

2. Covering the hair with plastic maintains the moisture so that the honey can keep producing peroxide - honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution. However, I now believe that you only need to leave a honey lightening treatment on the hair for 1 hour, or a bit more, at a time.

2. No, you do not need to keep adding water - you need to have diluted the honey well enough to begin with.

ktani, I'm sorry for being confusing, I was just trying to make the point that the two different shades in my hair were due to chemical dyeing/growing this out rather than the honey itself - you are right that my 'before' picture is after using honey and I do not have a true 'before' with virgin regrowth. Sorry I did not explain better!

I was surprised, too, how much lightening I got from the honey/cinnamon treatment - I started taking pictures really to convince myself, before I took them I wasn't really sure that honey was having an effect! As you have said, a mixture with different boosters works very well.

That's really interesting that only just over an hour will be enough for lightening, it would definitely be more convenient! Thank you!

Sissilonghair - I have done honey treatments much more often than twice a week, with no ill effects. I have also added cassia to the mix and it still worked - I guess just be careful if you have *very* fair hair, as I believe that cassia can actually make very fair hair darker, as it deposits a slight yellow dye, but from what I have read in the cassia thread, cassia (unlike henna) washes out gradually. I didn't get any darkening from cassia though, you can see in my pictures what color my hair is. I actually sometimes don't wrap my hair in plastic (I find it hard to do without giving myself a headache, I wish I could as I'm sure it would be much easier if I did!), but when I don't I keep a mister bottle with water next to me and spray it to make sure it doesn't dry out. If you do the plastic though, like ktani says, you won't need to add water. This seems to work well for me, but be careful if you use cinnamon and leave it down as it can burn your skin.

ktani, I'm sorry for being confusing, I was just trying to make the point that the two different shades in my hair were due to chemical dyeing/growing this out rather than the honey itself - you are right that my 'before' picture is after using honey and I do not have a true 'before' with virgin regrowth. Sorry I did not explain better!

I was surprised, too, how much lightening I got from the honey/cinnamon treatment - I started taking pictures really to convince myself, before I took them I wasn't really sure that honey was having an effect! As you have said, a mixture with different boosters works very well.

That's really interesting that only just over an hour will be enough for lightening, it would definitely be more convenient! Thank you!

Sissilonghair - I have done honey treatments much more often than twice a week, with no ill effects. I have also added cassia to the mix and it still worked - I guess just be careful if you have *very* fair hair, as I believe that cassia can actually make very fair hair darker, as it deposits a slight yellow dye, but from what I have read in the cassia thread, cassia (unlike henna) washes out gradually. I didn't get any darkening from cassia though, you can see in my pictures what color my hair is. I actually sometimes don't wrap my hair in plastic (I find it hard to do without giving myself a headache, I wish I could as I'm sure it would be much easier if I did!), but when I don't I keep a mister bottle with water next to me and spray it to make sure it doesn't dry out. If you do the plastic though, like ktani says, you won't need to add water. This seems to work well for me, but be careful if you use cinnamon and leave it down as it can burn your skin.

firebird

No need to apologize - I did understand that your 2 toned hair had nothing to do with the honey treatments - that is where you started from.
I thought that you explained things very well, in your report.

Your previous honey treatments just did not lighten over all as well as your first honey cinnamon treatment.

Thank you for posting all of the added detail.

I did not know that you used the treatments uncovered. That would no doubt slow things down as the hair dries, IMO.

Spraying water to keep the treatment moist, obviously worked for you - covering the hair allows well diluted honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted.

When I do my catnip treatment, for one part, I pin my hair up and then cover it.

I am sorry to read that covering you hair for the treatments gives you a headache. The covering does not have to be too tight IMO, and from my experience, with the catnip treatments.

Thanks for all the info:).I hope this thread goes on and on and on...Anyway I just did the mix with 3 tbsp cond.2tbsp honey 1 tbsp EVOO.It looks very liquid to me I hope it is ok.I'm going to put it on my head right now...I'll report later.:D

Sissilonghair

Thank you.

The thread is getting to be long.

Thank you also for your recipe, and good luck.

I'm doing it tonight!!! I've just received my ingredients and the honey I bought is very dark (hope it works)...tomorrow I'll post with the results.

nayver

Good luck!

I look forward to reading your results.

More useful information, from the home testing honey for its peroxide value link, and some theorizing on my part.
Getting passed the spelling errors is necessary to read this link at the bottom of this post but the information is valid, IMO.

“Hydrogen-peroxide can ….be terminated.”
Put that together with this
“If you found zero:
if the honey contains vitamin C, the H2 O2 is used to oxidize the vitamin, …the amount of H2 O2 is less.”

What these statements tell me, is that if a recipe contains either a honey with Vitamin C or possibly another ingredient containing Vitamin C, then the peroxide value of the whole recipe is lessened.

Honeys that contain Vitamin C are thyme - Thymus spp. and mint - Mentha spp.

There has been the occasional report of honey lightening results redarkening after the treatment.

I think that it may be the Vitamin C content of an ingredient in the recipe weakening the honey’s peroxide value and if the Vitamin C amount is high enough, it can cause redarkening of the hair, after causing some lightening to occur.

Lemon juice, high in Vitamin C, used in lightening recipes with conditioner and no honey, has been to reported to result in lightening and then redarkening on hennaed hair. Not all of the lightening achieved was reported lost though.

It would depend however, on how much of the lemon juice is used, and the peroxide value of the honey, for lightening and redarkening to happen as results of a honey lightening recipe with lemon juice, IMO.

Mellie used a “squeeze” of lemon in Mellie’s Mix. Her henndigoed hair lightened with no problems using alfalfa honey but not with clover honey. I think that particular clover honey did not have a high enough peroxide value to lighten hair, or was possibly too weakened dealing with the Vitamin C content of the lemon juice used, to be effective. No redarkening was reported with the alfalfa honey use.

Mellie sat in low, cool afternoon sun with the alfalfa honey treatment on her hair for about an hour to 1.5 hours, with breaks, getting out of the sun. UV, can negatively affect the peroxide value of honey and help lemon juice lighten hair.

However, there is ¼ cup of honey in the recipe, compared to a squeeze of lemon. I do not believe that the UV and lemon juice were significant factors in mellie’s final results.

ETA: I checked with mellie - she had tried Mellie's Mix with the clover honey in the same sunlight for the same amount of time and got no lightening. If the lemon juice and UV were the lightening factors of the recipe and method - she would have gotten lightening results with the clover honey version, IMO.

With honey tomato recipes, too concentrated a tomato product may have a high enough Vitamin C content to weaken the peroxide of the honey used, its own peroxide value and cause the hair to redarken after initial lightening following the treatment. Even though the honey tomato recipe calls for EVOO, which also has a peroxide value, the additional peroxide may not be high enough to help compensate for the Vitamin C content of the tomato product used.

Tomato pasta sauce, used in a honey lightening recipe is diluted to begin with, and has not been reported to cause any problems. Foods lose Vitamin C content when cooked. Canned tomato sauce and crushed tomatoes have lower Vitamin C contents than tomato paste.

It may be, that the honeys used in reported successful honey tomato treatments, (lightening and no redarkening), had high enough peroxide values, together with the EVOO peroxide, and a pasta sauce peroxide value, for example, to compensate for any peroxide weakening caused by Vitamin C, present in the tomato product.

Links
Vitamin C in foods
http://health.learninginfo.org/vitaminc.htm (http://health.learninginfo.org/vitaminc.htm)

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/usda.html (http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/usda.html)

Testing honey for its peroxide value
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

More from the same link on testing honey for peroxide content
“If you found zero:
if the honey contains the enzyme katalase, …katalase is used to split the H2 O2 (into water and oxygen). Katalase is a component of some pollen.”

“Katalase” is catalase spelled incorrectly.

This statement goes to some honeys, through their plant source, not being able to produce enough peroxide or in this case maintain it.

The peroxide strips to used for home testing the peroxide value of a honey in the link are
“Marckoquant hydrogen-peroxide testtrips Nr. 10.011 … "

“Marckoquant” is Merckoquant® spelled incorrectly.
The strips “…are frequently used in food industy after cleaning ther machines with hydrogen-peroxide “

Testing honey for its peroxide value
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

For honey lightening treatments, I recommend skipping lemon juice as an ingredient and if choosing the honey tomato recipe, use canned tomato pasta sauce or canned crushed tomatoes.

Also avoid any ingredient with a high Vitamin C content because I think that it can possibly weaken the peroxide value of the honey used in the treatment.

Mellie's Mix is an excellent recipe, IMO.
I would just leave out the "squeeze" of lemon.

Oddly enough, Vitamin C, given intravenously, converts to hydrogen peroxide under certain circumstanses - very interesting, IMO.
"It is these high blood levels that are required ... mechanism of action, vitamin C converting to hydrogen peroxide ...
http://www.jeffersonhospital.org/news/2007/article15617.html

Ktani I've just made my mix, but it's too watery!!! I have it already in my hair, but I don´t know if it wil work :(

nayver

Watery is good IMO, wait and see.

You have the ingredients now - it may take adjusting your recipe.

Did you use Mellie's proportions?

Yes, I used Mellie's proportions, but she has longer hair :) I think it was too much for me. Can I keep the rest of the mixture for a further application???

nayver

The full peroxide content of the honey is reached in an hour.

How long it will keep is uncertain.

I recommend doing a new batch for a recipe each time.

You could try and keep it in the fridge but I do not know how effective it will be after storing.

Wait and see your results - refridgerate the rest in the meantime.

I suggest if you want to use it up - do so in the next few days.

Hello Ktani, I have a couple questions. After reading your new info, I'm wondering if maybe my honey wasn't diluted enough after all? Also, my tomato recipe, I used tomato paste. Another possible reason for it to not work. Also, I just got some new honey, it's a bit darker, not sure what kind though (clover, alfalfa, etc.) It just says raw-wild natural, 100% pure strained honey. I'm going to try a treatment later today using this honey, cone-free condish, and coconut oil. Is it possible that proteins from my condish would effect it? Also, I found a website that has some interesting info on honey. www.suebee.com, click on honey. If you go to the encyclobeedia, there's a ton of info. Sorry if it sounded like I was rambling, haven't had much sleep... :shrug:;)

It's midnight in Madrid and I'm so sleepy that I will get in bed with honey in my head :) Tomorrow I'll post my results. By the way, my hair is black with rests of highlights.

Another thing, I took a small strand of hair and let it soak in pure hydrogen peroxide, just to see what would happen. It's been in for 30 minutes, and there has been absolutely no color change. Does this mean my hair just isn't going to change? Or would pure hydrogen peroxide just not really work? (Don't worry, I would never put it straight on my head!)

Hi DolphinPrincess

Honey should always be well diluted for a honey lightening recipe in order to produce peroxide.

The proteins? Perhaps - it depends on how the conditioner is formulated - too many waxy ingredients, too much oil, too many coatings like protein and it is possible - did you check out the Preferred Conditioner List?

It gives you an idea of what kind of conditioners have worked well with the treatments.

An example is Herbal Essences Hello Hydration.

Here is the list.

"Preferred Conditioner List
Note: This list is a guide. These hair conditioners have been reported to work well in the recipes.
Alberto V05 Champagne & Strawberries, Alberto V05 Honeydew Smoothie, Alberto V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Alberto VO5 Sun Kissed Raspberry, Alberto V05 Vanilla Mint Tea, Citre Shine, Herbal Essences Hello Hydration, Kiss My Face, Mane 'n Tail, Tigi Oatmeal & Honey."

Sorry DolphinPrincess

I missed the peroxide question.

3% or 10 volume peroxide has been used to lighten hennaed hair - there was a thread on the results - it is not here at the moment.

It can be tricky with that - overuse resulted in someone having to cut off most of their hair's length but it had lightened.

That has never been reported to happen as a result of any honey lightening treatment.

Even if the honey lightening treatment does not work - it will not trash your hair no matter how many times you try it.

Do I think that your hair will never lighten? No.

It may fade on its own or you could find a recipe that works for you.

The method and the recipe ingredients though are important.

Yes, I had checked out the list, but both of the stores I ever go to (WalMart and Safeway) have a very, very limited V05 selection. I typically use Suave Vanilla (either kind) for everything that requires a cheap, cone-free condish. I do also have Herbal Essences Long Term Relationship, if you think it might work better.

For the peroxide, don't worry, I'm not going to put it in my head, I'm just curious to see if it'll lighten, how long it'll take, how light it'll get, etc.

DolphinPrincess

Comparing the 2 ingredient lists
Hello Hydration
"Water, Stearyl Alcohol, CyclopentaSiloxane, Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Dimethicone, Vanilla Planifolia Fruit Extract, Cocos Nucifera Milk (Coconut), Fragrance, Glutamic Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, EDTA, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Citric Acid, Blue 1"
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=159823&catid=10325&brand=21469&trx=PLST-0-BRAND&trxp1=10325&trxp2=159823&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND&cmbProdBrandFilter=21469

Long Term Relationship
"Water , Stearyl Alcohol , Cetyl Alcohol , Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine , Raspberry Juice - Rubus Idaeus , Hydrolyzed Silk , Glutamic Acid , Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone , Fragrance , Benzyl Alcohol , EDTA , Citric Acid , Propylene Glycol , Sodium Chloride , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone , Red 33"
http://www.resource.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304639&navAction=jump&navCount=0&skuid=sku3868065&id=prod3869216#ingredient


I think Long Term Relationshp should be fine.

Thank you Ktani! When I look at ingredient lists, I really don't know what I'm looking at. :D:p

DolphinPrincess

You are most welcome.

It has taken me years to figure them out, with the help of a cosmetic dictionary, the net and reading Paula Begoun's books.

With all of that, cosmetic companies still come up with new ingredients that require looking them up.

I can only imagine.

Another question: (sorry so many today) After reading the new research, does that mean that honey should make up only 25% of a recipe to get best results?

DolphinPrincess

No, it just needs to be diluted in 4 x the amount of liquid, which can include other ingredients like conditioner in a treatment.

And thank you again! I'm going to try doing a treatment of condish, honey, and coconut oil every other day or every day when I wash my hair for as long as possible (goal is a month) to see if something will happen. I have my fingers crossed!

DolphinPrincess

You could also try Mellie's Mix, without the lemon juice.

That calls for 1/4 cup of honey to 1 cup of water, plus the chamomile and mullein - which is perfect, IMO.

Mellie's Mix: (used successfully on hennindigoed hair)
"chamomile Note:mellie used (Anthemis nobilis - Roman chmomile)
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

The honey is 25% of the number of ingredients in this case but the proportions are a different matter and water is not usually counted in the honey lightening treatments as an ingredient - it is an option with most recipes, to make sure that the honey is diluted well enough.

Hmmm, where would I find the mullein?

ETA: Sorry, I don't even know what it is.

DolphinPrincess

You will need 2 things to duplicate the recipe - Roman Chamomile - Anthemis nobilis and mullein.

Both may be found in health food stores or online.

firebird

From what I have read, mullein flowers can yield a yellow dye and mullein also contains mucilage, which can build-up on hair but that depends on the content yielded by the plant. Mucilage is considered to be moisturizing to an extent as well as being reported to help provide slip to the hair.

Most plant seed oils can as I understand it have a peroxide value, but that varies.

I have read of mullein, Verbascum thapsus, being used for hair lightening.

I will try to find out more about it.

mellie may have more information.

ETA: here is the Wiki information See "Uses"
"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus

and here is the Plants For a Future database link, that also refers to its dye use, stating that to yield a yellow dye, the flowers must be boiled and that an infusion of the flowers can be used to dye hair a golden shade. See "Other Uses"
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Verbascum+thapsus

Mullein cautions - See "Other info"
http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellowalt/Verbascum_thaspus_page.html

Mullein is generally recognized as safe - See "Safety Issues"
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21821

DolphinPrincess

Here you go. mellie posted that a book she has said that mullein "brightens" hair.

Thanks! You've been so much help!

It's 8.35 am in Madrid and I just wash my hair. I don't see any noticeable changes in my hair. I'll wait until my hair is completely dry to post the results. The thing is I'm smelling like honey! :D

Thanks for all the info:).I hope this thread goes on and on and on...Anyway I just did the mix with 3 tbsp cond.2tbsp honey 1 tbsp EVOO.It looks very liquid to me I hope it is ok.I'm going to put it on my head right now...I'll report later.:D
I had the mixture on my head for two hours,I loved the feeling of my hair under the water it was so soft...My hair don't look too light,I have a golden tone on it but they are still kind of reddish,maybe because I didn't cover it with a shower cap??Please help,I really want to repeat this treatement for my hair.:)

Well, my hair is still wet, but I can see that my highlights are clearer. My dark hair is still dark, maybe I need more applications. Even if it doesn't work to lighten my hair as a treatment is wonderful, my hair is softer than ever.

As a I said before, the highlights of my hair are now clearer. Hair looks fine, but I think I'll try with more applications. Ktani...how much I have to wait for the second application? Hair at the ends is crunchy...maybe I didn't rinse it well.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1239/p1030392zd9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Nayver, it definitely looks lighter than your avatar to me! Lovely body, too! Very pretty! :-)

I have done a second treatment as soon as the next day, if you want to try again.

I had the mixture on my head for two hours,I loved the feeling of my hair under the water it was so soft...My hair don't look too light,I have a golden tone on it but they are still kind of reddish,maybe because I didn't cover it with a shower cap??Please help,I really want to repeat this treatement for my hair.:)

Sissilinghair

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

I am glad to read that your hair is so soft.

You need to keep the hair covered with plastic during the treatment to get the best results.

Honey need continuous moisture to keep producing peroxide.

nayver

I agree with mellie. Your hair does look lighter.

From all reports - there is no reason why you cannot repeat the treatment as often as you like.

Crunchy ends can happen - honey can leave a residue.

Wash your hair with shampoo or use a mild vinegar rinse - 1 tsp vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, then rinsed out.

ETA: If you washed your hair with shampoo this morning, it may need a second light shampoo or just the vinegar rinse.

nayver

I just looked at your signature picture in your profile - your hair definitely is lighter, IMO.

Thank you girls!!! Mellie I have lots of hair...when I was younger I didn't like it, but now I LOVE volume. I'll try tonight again, but different proportions, since my hair is shorter than Mellie's. One more question...do I have to shampoo again or just wet the hair?

nayver

It has been reported that it sometimes takes a second shampoo to remove the residue - the dry ends feeling.

If you do not want to rewash - try the vinegar rinse first but leave it on your hair 30-60 seconds before rinsing.

I usually shampoo in between treatments.

mellie

Do your ends ever feel dry from the treatment?

Perhaps different honeys leave different amount of residue or the hair was washed with not enough shampoo in some cases.

No, I have no problem with dry or crunchy ends. The treatment leaves my hair feeling very soft and great.

Mellie sorry for my questions :( Do you wash your hair before the treatment? or just you applied to damp hair? and after the treatment, do you shampoo it to avoid residues??

nayver

When you mix the next batch - try leaving out the lemon juice - you may just get more lightening.

Ktani, I left out the lemon juice after reading your posts ;) I know I have to do several treatments cause my hair is very black and it's gonna take more time to achieve the desired result.

nayver, I usually shampoo the morning of the treatment. I don't shampoo right after it though, just rinse it out well. I do shampoo the next morning. I suppose you could shampoo right after, I'm just lazy. :-)

It will take a few treatments definitely, since your hair is even darker than mine! :-)

nayver

Thank you for making that clear.

I think, considering how dark your hair is that the treatment is working very well.

Mellie's Mix is the exact dilution needed for maximum honey peroxide content.

I just never knew that until I read that link.

Thanks Mellie and Ktani ;) I'll try again tonight, but I will leave just one or two hours and I won't wash it until tomorrow.

nayver

Sounds good.

1 hour is all you really need - 1.5 - 2 is even better to make sure that you have the best chance of achieving your goal, IMO.

Good luck!

I checked with mellie - she had tried Mellie's Mix with the clover honey in the same sunlight for the same amount of time and got no lightening. If the lemon juice and UV were the lightening factors of the recipe and method - she would have gotten lightening results with the clover honey version, IMO.

I think that the alfalfa honey produced enough peroxide to deal with being weakened by the lemon juice Vitamin C content, and still be effective for lightening.

I recommend leaving the lemon juice out of Mellie's Mix. Otherwise IMO, it is a perfect recipe to try on any hair - henndigoed, hennaed, colour-treated or virgin, for honey lightening.

Latest honey lightening recipe news Recap 1

1. Dilute honey with a ratio of 4 to 1, liquid to honey to produce peroxide.
Translation - example - if you use a 1/4 cup of honey in a recipe - use one cup of liquid, composed of either conditioner, water, water with herbs or pasta sauce to dilute the honey. Oil does not count as a liquid.

2. The peroxide produced by honey in a recipe will oxidize Vitamin C, present either in the honey itself, or I belive present in another recipe ingredient. This will deplete the amount of peroxide in the honey.
Application - Avoid honeys that contain Vitamin C, examples - mint honey and thyme honey. Avoid adding any ingredient that has a high Vitamin C content to a recipe, examples - lemon juice and tomato paste.

3. Honey lightening recipes only need to be left on the hair for 1 hour or a bit more to be sure of any results.
Reason - honey when diluted at a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey will produce the maximum amount of peroxide in 1 hour.

4. The best honey to buy is a darker coloured blend of honeys. The honey does not have to be raw or expensive.
Reason - The peroxide value of honey is determined by the plant source. A honey blend IMO, increases the odds of buying a honey that will yield enough peroxide to be effective for lightening hair. The darker coloured honeys are less likely to include UF honey, an over processed honey on the market that is very pale in colour. A honey blend can include varieties of one plant source like alfalfa, reported to be very good in terms of results for honey lightening.

Looking back with the new information in mind.

Viviane's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread.
"The Recipe: equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and condition if desired.
The conditioner can be left out of the recipe if desired, or a preferred conditioner is hard to obtain, and water added to ensure that there is enough moisture to dilute the honey.
In this recipe, the coconut cream provides a peroxide boost."
Coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream - it is the part of the coconut cream that has the peroxide value.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...9&postcount=38 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38)


Javadandy's recipe
"I tried a honey, conditioner and coconut oil treatment on the hair. About 50/20/30. It was a little runny, I used a cheapy rosemary conditioner I bought a while back from Sam's Club."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=215 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=215)

Both of these recipes worked well on henndigoed hair but the results reported were more gradual per treatment than Mellie's Mix, which used the 4 to one liquid to honey ratio to dilute the honey.

I think that the maximum peroxide content of the honey used was not achieved each time, requiring more frequent treatments to get the level of ligtening desired.

Mellie's Mix
"chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
Note: mellie later confirmed, that the species of chamomile she used was Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), and that these results were on henndigoed hair.
View pictures here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=224 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=224)

For Viviane's and Javadandy's receipes, I recommend adding more water to the mix to get the 4 to 1 ratio.

I believe that Mellie's Mix will yield even better results without the lemon juice.

(http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215)

Girls I have my second application in my hair...I'll leave it for one hour, then rinse with vinegar and finally I'll wash my hair. Pics after the results :D

nayver

Sounds good but I would reverse part of the order.

Rinse out the treatment, wash your hair, then use the vinegar rinse. Leave the vinegar rinse on the hair 30-60 seconds before rinsing it out.

ETA: You can also use conditioner if you like following the vinegar rinse, IMO.

Ktani I didn't read your message before, but I did I as planned. I rinse with vinegar first, then shampoo and then conditioner and my hair is soft, not crunchy, like the first time. Hair is definitely getting lighter, but I would be doing applications for the next weeks. My mixture was watery also, but since my hair was not dripping wet I could apply it better.

nayver

My message was a suggestion.

The important thing is that your hair is soft, not crunchy.

I am so pleased for you.

Any pictures?

The archives have allowd recovery of Honey II - the result thread with pictures, the original Honey thread and the Honey Article.

Here is Honey II
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=60217

And here is the original Honey thread
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=55345

Here is the Honey Article - with pictures
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=62261

Thank you Stephanie for all of your hard work on this and so much more and thank you Mods for all of the hard work you do to keep this site and TBB in order.

Yes, Nayver - pics please! :-)

Tonight I will take one ;) What I really have noticed in my roots (where I don't have bleached strands) that the treatment is like a semi-permanent dyed (a few years ago I used one call Natural Instincts by Clairol)...I suppose is for the peroxide. The good thing about honey is that I can use it many times without damaging my hair. I'm very optimist!!!

nayver

I am pleased that you are so pleased with your results.

I eagerly await your picture.

If you can, could you please post your signature picture, your first treatment picture and your latest picture in one post so that they can be compared in one viewing?

I was wrong about honey having no chelating abilities.

Honey contains gluconic acid, which is a chelator.

However, I found no references that referred to honey as being a chelating agent.

Honey can leave a residue that can be removed with shampoo or a vinegar rinse.

See "Description" for gluconic acid
http://www.foodbs.org/foodb/additives/show/824

See "Occurance and uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconic_acid

The gluconic acid content of honey varies.

This source says that honey has a gluconic acid amount of ".3%"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200209/000020020902A0230313.php

This source says that the D-gluconic acid range varies from "3.91 to 11.71 g/kg" in selected honeys.
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/1997/45/i09/abs/jf970012c.html

Here are my three pics :) I don't know if I have had any progress, but I'm having fun with my potions :D

Before (oriental black hair -1/4 chinese- with bleached highlights done in August 2007)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3884/otrsfqc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the first treatment with Mellie's mix but without the squeeze of lemon.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2290/p1030392gp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the second treatment with Mellie's mix again

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3729/p1030398ig8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I know the lights are different

nayver

Thank you for posting all 3 pictures.

Even with the different lighting I can see the lightening, especially at your roots.

Are the current treatment results without lemon juice too?

No lemon for me ;) I'll wait a couple of days to do it again.

nayver

Your results are wonderful, IMO.

Previous reports of tests on black hair strands have not been successful.

However, much more about honey and how the peroxide works is now known in this thread and understood.

Thank you for posting all of the details.

Nayver, your natural wave looks so nice in the final photo! Did you curl it or is it the honey doing that?

mellie

I think that you are the first to create a honey lightening recipe with the exact dilution needed to get the maximum honey peroxide content in one shot.

How many alfalfa honey Mellie's Mixes did you do altogether?

I can see from your pictures how beautiful your hair looked after each treatment.

What are the long term results of the condition of your hair so far since using Mellie's mix?

Thanks ktani!

I think that I only did 2-3 alfalfa mixes altogether. I tried a few unsuccessful clover honey treatments too.

The Mellie's Mix really left my hair in excellent condition.

Thank you mellie

Going by nayver's results, on naturally black hair, where there are no previously lightened strands, I think that you would have gotten even more lightening without the lemon juice.

I am glad to read that the condition of your hair corresponds to all of the reports so far on long term honey lightening treatment use as well as short term use - minus the one short term report I attribute to residue - no damage.

Previous recipes I believe, had less than the full amount of peroxide possible being produced each time. Long term use would IMO, be equivalent to 2 or 3 treatments with the alfalfa honey version of Mellie's Mix, in terms of the amount of peroxide being applied to the hair, in some cases.

The clover honey version produced no lightening - with the same mix and conditions, that tells me that there was not enough peroxide produced or left after oxidizing the lemon juice, to affect the hair's condition very much, if at all.

So far, based on the reports of honey lightening results and the reports of cinnamon use for lightening hair, I still believe that the peroxide produced by plants (this includes the peroxide in oils), and honey is tempered by other natually occurring constituents, resulting in it being be non-damaging to hair and skin.

The exceptions are the reports of the temporary effects to date, of cinnamon irritation, that I believe was caused by cinnamon oil, and the one and only report on honey use, that I believe was a residue result.

ETA: The irritant in cinnamon, is according this this link, cinnamic aldehyde a constituent of the oil. Hydrogen peroxide is not mentioned.
See both "Cinamomum" and "Cinnamomum cassia"
http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermL/LAUR.html

And in this one, other constituents were named as well, in a case of long term irritation but again, no mention of hydrogen peroxide.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/cod/2005/00000052/00000004/art00015

Thanks girls!!! Ktani I've been blessed with a strong hair, so I don't think the mixture is acting negatively against it. After the first time, when I feel the crunchy ends, I think was the result of not rinsing well, because my roots were very smooth and sleek (maybe I just rinsed the roots :D). Now my hair is shinier than ever.
Mellie my waves were made with another potion :D I cooked "linen seeds" (in Spanish semillas de lino, I don't know if the translation is correct). I put 2 tbsp in a cup of water more or less and boil them. The result is a all natural curl activator gel ;) I discovered the recipe in a Spanish beauty forum. It was a little watery, but it worked. Next time I'll use less water.

Nayver, thanks for your curl recipe, that is very interesting! Do you let the mixture cool, then rinse through your hair? Then rinse out?

Maybe you should post that recipe and your photos in a new thread - I am sure other folks would be interested as well! It's gorgeous! :-)

nayver

Thank you for reporting back with further details.

Even with strong hair like yours, if the peroxide from the treatment was damaging, there would be indications, IMO, especially by now.

Your reports, on the condition of your hair following the treatments, are consistent with other reports of honey lightening results, including at first, your dry, crunchy ends.

You were able to resolve the dry ends problem with shampoo and the vinegar rinse, as other people have resolved the problem.

There have been 0 reports of honey lightening results, or cinnamon lightening results, turning the hair turning gummy or weakened, requiring that inches of strands or most of the hair be cut off, as there were in a thread where 3% and stronger, conventional hydrogen peroxide was used.

Considering the fact that there have been 4 Honey threads and one Honey Article to date, and several reports on long term, successive honey lightening use, I think that there would have been some indication by now, that the hydrogen peroxide produced by either honey, plants or food can damage hair, the way overuse of conventional hydrogen peroxide can damage it.

There has not been any such indication, reported to date, even when a honey lightening recipe has been used successively, on colour-treated and hi-lighted hair.

nayver

According to this
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/other/192535-flax_seed.html

what you used are flax seeds.

Yes, I was also thinking that's what it probably translated to in English. Nayver, do the seeds look like this?
http://www.wheatmontana.com/store/images/Brown-Flax-Seed.jpg

There have been no reports of the hydrogen peroxide produced by either honey or plants, causing long term irritation or damaged skin, on the scalp or elsewhere, in the 5 Honey threads (including the Honey Article), or in any other thread on these boards, that I have read.

Diluted honey use irritated my sensitive scalp but the condition was temporary, with no long term results.

Mellie those are my seeds! I will have a busy weekend and I don't think I'll have time to post a thread, but I surely will after Monday. It's an easy recipe and the best thing is all natural and cheap. I let the mixture cool and apply it like a gel or mousse. You can keep the mixture for a couple of days.

nayver

I look forward to your reading post on the flax seeds, wherever you place it.

I think mellie's idea is a good one - a thread on your flax seed mix sounds interesting - pictures of your hair with the gel and other ways of using the mix are excellent for showing others how to use the recipe.

Behind my reasoning on plant and honey produced peroxide being non-damaging to hair and skin

In this Honey Article reference, it states, that aside from the fact that the amount of peroxide produced by honey is approximately 1000 times less than conventional 3% peroxide, honey itself has other constituents that lessen the negative effects of the peroxide it produces. The peroxide produced by honey has been reported not to be damaging to human skin cells.
See "Hydrogen peroxide activity"
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

I believe, that the same kind of tempering mechanisms occur in the plants that produce peroxide.

The honey lightening reports and cinnamon lightening reports, so far, have indicated to me, that this may well be the case and further,
that plant and honey produced peroxide is also non-damaging to hair.

Awesome! Nayver, I bought some of your seeds today and can't wait to try it! :-)

I swear my hair is getting darker since I started using honey rinses! My white hair seems to be reverting back to it's earlier, well, honey color. Has anyone experienced this? Maybe the honey is reacting with the cassia treatment I did a month ago? The cassia should have worn off by now, based on past experience.

lynnala, when I started doing honey treatments (and rinses), at first I thought that as well as the lightening, I was sometimes getting some 'honey' color. Looking at the pictures I've done for this thread, it doesn't seem like it, but I have other pictures in different lights which do show my hair has a more golden/reddish color. Thinking back, the picture I am thinking of was taken after I did a treatment with particularly dark (clover) honey and pretty soon after a cassia treatment. I don't know if it is the light, the honey or my hair (I do have some very red strands, 2 of my grandparents had red hair), but when I first saw the picture, I was surprised at how red it looked. My husband actually commented that my hair was getting red too.

Well, after doing a couple honey treatments with a new recipe, I thought I'd post my recipe and a few pictures.
My new recipe:
1/2 cup Herbal Essences Long Term Relationship & Aussie Cleanse and Mend (ran out of the HE, so I subbed some of my SO's and it worked great!)
2 Tablespoons Honey (not sure what kind, but it's dark!)
2 Tablespoons Coconut Oil
I shampooed my hair, rinsed well, squeezed the extra water from my hair, and applied. I left it in for about an hour and a half, then rinsed well. My hair came out so super soft and shiny! I've used this mix twice now, and my hair is loving it! Absolutely no crunchiness or build-up! I'm going to do a henna tomorrow, so I'll have to wait a few days before the next! I hadn't thought there was any color change, but looking at my new pics, I definitely think so! And please don't mind the funky wave-thing, it the aftermath of my work updo. :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/021.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/016.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/018.jpg

lynnala

Thank you for your feedback.

Honey rinses, not left on the hair for about an hour and covered, would not IMO, be able to lighten hair.

Honey has not previously been reported to deposit a colour of its own on the hair. It could be a problem not reported before, on lighter hair colours, but I think that it would have been by now.

Cassia has however, been reported to darken and turn brassy on light coloured hair, here in other threads - different batches of cassia can vary in the colour they produce as well.

A constituent of cassia is chrysophanic acid, which in pure form can vary from yellow to orange-yellow in colour.

See "Chemistry"
"Other constituents in senna include chrysophanic acid .... "
http://www.drugs.com/npp/senna.html

See "Guarantee analysis"
"yellow-orange ..."
http://www.carlroth.be/catalogue/catalogue.do?ID=1178804185790&favOid=0000000100005b7e00040023&CMD=SELECT&act=showBookmark&lang=nl-nl&catId=NL

firebird

From what I have read about cassia and the difference in batches and the reports about it turning brassy on fair hair, I think that it is more likely the cassia you used than the honey.

It is possible though, that if your hair was dry and porous, it might have picked up a bit of honey colour.

However, if the honey was well diluted, I do not think that it would be able to impart much colour to the hair.

DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

I am very pleased to read that you are so happy with the condition of your hair.

From your pictures, I can see that there is some colour change - it is slight but it is there, IMO.

Aussie Cleanse and Mend is one of the conditioners reported not to work well in a honey lightening recipe.

From your post, you did not use too much of it though.

I would leave it out of future honey lightening recipes and stay with the Herbal Essences choices that you planned on using had you not run out of one of them.

I think that you may find that you will get even more lightening.

Oh, good to know, thanks! I will definitely leave it out then!

lynnala and firebird

It may also be possible IMO, that the acids in the honeys you both used, reacted with the cassia.

See "290 Abstracts of Chemical Papers"
"Chrysophanic acid (sodium hydroxide fraction) ... shows orange-red with sulphuric acid, yellow with nitric acid, and a yellow .....on dilution."
http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=AN9154000287&JournalCode=AN

According to this link, in pure form, chrysophanic acid, is golden yellow, and there is more detail about it changing colour in different solutions. See "Description"
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/kings/acidum-chry.html

The specific use of darker coloured honeys is "new territory" in terms of reported results. However, when diliuted well, I still tend to think that they will not add much colour to the hair. For lighter coloured hair, a less dark honey may be preferable.

It does appear with your 2 results, that honey and cassia may be reacting somehow.

So, after reading the thread in The Beauty Bottle, is it possible that the Manuka Honey would have better results?

DolphinPrincess

Manuka honey is generally much much more expensive than other honeys.

I think that you are starting to get the results that you are after now.

I recommend continuing with the honey that you are using first - making sure that you use the 4 to one ratio of liquid to honey - which includes the amount of conditioner but not the oil, and leave out the Aussie Cleanse and Mend.

You can add water to get the ratio rather than only conditioner.

Tonight I did the honey treatment for my hair again. Not necessarily for lightening but for moisturizing. I took a spoon of AO GPB Condi, Sanoll Haar Intensiv Spülung (from Austria) and creamy honey.

I left it over night, cause I was too tired to rinse it out before I went to bed. I couldn´t sleep with it very well, so I decided to wash it out at 5 am...
I rinsed for a couple of minutes until my legs started to shake because I was bending over all the time (next time I´ll do a warm up and some stretching ;-)). Afterwards it was a bit difficult to fall asleep again.

Well, for the result: The hair is moisturized, but I haven´t rinsed very well. There is some residue left, it feels a bit greasy, but looks good. Due to the residue my hair looks a bit darker. Doesn´t matter. Next time I leave it just for an hour, when I´m awake, and rinse it outl

My observation with AO conditioners. I have the impression that they don´t dissolve very well with the other conditioner, the honey and the some extra water. I had this time again little pieces of ao condish in my hair, even though it has been for hours in my hair.

I will try this recipe again next time with a different conditoner.

Myrddin

Thank you for your feedback and recipe details.

Conditioners can definitely make a difference in honey lightening and conditioning results.

I am glad to read that your hair is moisturized.

Thank you also for the details about AO conditioners.

Shampoo or a vinegar rinse should help remove the honey residue.

Honey has not been reported to be a problem in terms of possibly adding colour to the hair until recently - as new results continue to come in, that may change. It may be that it can.

Another option for you may be Mellie's Mix, without the lemon juice, which contains no conditioner, only herbs, if you want lightening.

This recipe is reported to leave the hair soft and very shiny.

Mellie's Mix
chamomile Note: mellie later posted that she used Anthemis nobilis - Roman chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224)

Hey Ktani,

thanks for the input. I might try Mellies method if I´m getting bored or something like that.

I´m also not worried about the residue or the light crispiness. I know the next wash with shampoo or shampoo bar everything will be fine. Who knows maybe then I´ll see some lightening results.

Myrddin

Sounds good.

Some conditioners have been reported to interfere with honey lightening - like Aussie Cleanse and Mend.

kathrynrose experimented with it to see if she could get lightening with her usual recipe - she did not.

However, when she used the exact same recipe with another conditioner, she got lightening.

When I looked at the Aussie ingredient list, I could see the extra waxy ingredients, polymers and oils that IMO, were the cause of the problem.

ktani, that's really interesting about how honey and cassia could react, thanks so much for looking into it! I didn't realize that cassia could make hair brassy/reddish, it's good to know it is that and not the honey alone. I am going to do another cassia treatment soon, so I will take pictures and see if this happens again when I use the honey.

firebird

You are very welcome.

I am not sure exactly how they may be reacting. I did know about cassia and brassiness from reading threads on that happening some time ago.

I found 2 of the links and information then but I do not believe that I posted them. There was no possible honey cassia connection then that I was aware of - there were just reports of cassia turning hair darker and brassy. I have lynnala and you to thank for making me aware of that possibility and the possibility that honey may be able to affect hair colour on its own.

I look forward to reading your continued feedback.

In light of the current discussions on cassia, honey and hair colour changes, I find these excerpts from a recent thread, particularly interesting.

Originally posted by Jeni
"and bowl 3-100% cassia, mixed with tea and water."
"The side with 100% cassia is red, slightly, very slightly, lighter then the 50/50, but still very much henna red. I'm confused, why is my hair red? All 3 samples came out pretty close to the same color... Could it of been the tea? "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020)

There were several theories in the following posts as to why these results may have occurred.

From the information in the links I posted earlier today in this thread - I think that it was the tea, possibly reacting with the chrysophanic acid in the cassia the same way honey may have on firebird's hair.

In lynnala's case, it may be that the honey in the rinse she used was too diluted to help the chrysophanic acid turn red, and just turned it gold instead.

Jeni's results are very interesting, thank you ktani for letting me know about it :) ktani, in response to what you said about maybe hair being dry/porous and so taking up more honey color - I forgot to mention it in my earlier reply, but my hair tends more towards oily than dry and although my dyed length may be more porous, the reddish color I saw affected all my hair.

I am currently doing a honey/cinnamon treatment and hope to do cassia and more honey in the next few days (DH will be away so I can experiment in peace :P), I will definitely take pictures! I would actually love to be able to keep a reddish color, as like I mentioned, I have some very red strands anyway and it would be great to bring out more reddish shade.

firebird

I think that you did mention your hair being oily before and I forgot that.

Thank you for clearing that up.

If my theory is correct about honey and cassia - you may just get your wish to have more red in your hair.

When I was looking at your latest honey cinnamon results a little while back, I did notice what I thought was a reddish tinge to your hair but I never thought too much about it.

I wondered if it might be a result of the cinnamon but never thought to persue it.

ktani; thanks for alerting me to these last pages. So you'll know how I'm using the honey, I am mixing about a tablespoon or so in a quart of water (warm first to melt the honey, then cold), and I use it as a final cold rinse which I do not wash out. I've been trying it for the conditioning effects, I didn't expect the color effects. I think you are right about it reacting with the cassia. The next time I wash my hair, I'll take some pics so we can compare them to my sig pics which are one month old. BTW, I am also experiencing the crunchy ends, so I am going to wash the rinse out of the ends from now on. (also, you can see from my sig pic how my hair took color from a three-hour cassia treatment).

lynnala

I thank you for helping me figure this out - if I am right.

You do not have to wash the rinse out.

Since the honey is so diluted - try a weak vinegar rinse first - 1 tsp of your preferred vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, then rinsed out.

That may give you more moisturizing benefits than shampooing the honey rinse out.

I have noticed your cassia results before - amazing!

ktani, I started using the honey because I dislike the smell of vinegar, even though I love the results vinegar had on my hair. I am just going to run the ends of my hair under clear water to see if it helps with the crunchies. I'm also going to experiment with citric acid in the honey rinse, as soon as I can find some citric acid.

lynnala

IMO, clear water may not be enough for the honey residue - it has not worked before, according to reports.

I also do not think adding citric acid to the honey rinse will help.

Try the citric acid rinse after the honey rinse.

Thanks ktani, I'll give it a try the way you suggest.

Just chiming in a little: I have experimented a little with HALO-rinse-inspired honey rinses (as a final, leave-in rinse). I tried different amounts of honey, and twice I happened to get too much honey which made my ends crunchy. Both times, a short rinse with water was enough to remove the crunchiness and make my hair soft again. So with small amounts of honey residue, plain water may be enough to fix it - at least it is for me. (I have never had any honey residue problems except for these two rinses.)

Meli

Thank you for that - crunchy ends have been reported with the honey lightening treatments - resolved by either a vinegar rinse or shampoo.

However, it is good to know that for you, clear water did work on diluted honey rinses - it is worth a shot, IMO, based on your report.

Hi, sorry about me barging in, but since honey is reported to bleach and cinnamon can too bleach, what about yogurt? And this question is inspired by my idiotic attemp at a face mask combining those three together. I thought it might be worth asking but I'll go away now..

savi

You are not intruding in the least. All questions are welcome.

And you are correct.

Certain yogurts do have a peroxide value.

Yogurt has been reported not to work out too well mixed with honey for hair - the hair was reported not to feel as good afterward, compared to other recipe ingredient choices.

L. acidolphilus and probiotic yogurts produce peroxide - mixed with honey and cinnamon for a face mask sounds like a great idea, IMO.

I will be posting recaps every few pages or so to help people keep up with the thread as it gets longer, depending on content.

Key new developments and news in honey lightening recipes Recap 2

1. The 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey (oil is not included as a liquid, conditioner is included) - using this ratio - the maximum honey peroxide level is reached in one hour. The research link that refers to this ratio is here.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

2. Timing - with the 4 to 1 ratio, only 1 hour or so is needed for a honey lightening recipe to be left on the hair.

3. Do not add an ingredient with a high Vitamin C content, like lemon juice or tomto paste to a recipe - it depletes the peroxide content of the recipe and leaving it out should prevent any redarkening of hair colour following the treatment, which can be caused by Vitamin C, depending on its amount.

4. There are still no reports to date that honey lightening treatments damage hair or skin - 3% or stronger conventional peroxide can - no weakened or gummy hair reported.

5. There are no reports to date of plant or food produced peroxide - this includes the peroxide in oils, spices and yogurt - damaging hair or skin either.

6. Cinnamon has been reported to be an excellent honey lightening recipe booster, exceeding the performance of other boosters - care must be taken though - it is an irritant.

7. Mellie’s Mix - Roman chamomile, mullein and alfalfa honey in a 4 to 1 ratio with water, has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair in just over 1 hour each time (with a squeeze of lemon) and on naturally black hair with hi-lights, with a different honey, (without the squeeze of lemon) - it lightened the black hair too, on the 2nd try, in 1 hour. Lemon juice is no longer recommended - See #3 for the explanation.

8. Coconut oil, substituted for coconut cream in a recipe, with a 50% honey, 20% conditioner, 30% oil ratio, (the mix was runny), has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair. (I believe that the conditioner had a lot of water in it.)

9. From current reports, honey may cause a previously done cassia treatment to either darken or develop red tones.

Things to watch for

While it appears that darker honeys do not alter hair colour and reports thought to indicate this may instead be honey reacting with prior cassia treatments - this is still being considered and reports on this subject are welcome.

I did a honey/cinnamon treatment over the weekend and a cassia treatment today. First, the honey/cinnamon treatment. This was after the previous honey treatment, so is a 'before' shot:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/4xhoney.jpg

I decided to try a more dilute honey mixture, so mixed 1 part honey with 2 parts conditioner and 1 part water. I wanted to use cinnamon too, but this mixture was obviously pretty watery and I wanted to really get it well into my hair, so I decided to put it on my hair first and then apply cinnamon afterwards (a method mentioned in the cinnamon thread). This turned out to be a REALLY bad idea, as anywhere I split cinnamon on my shoulders/hairline, even for a few seconds, burnt. I was surprised, as with my previous method of using cinnamon I had never had any problems. I am definitely going back to my old method - this was to mix the cinnamon with the honey etc first, apply to head in shower avoiding scalp as much as possible, put hair in plastic disposable shower cap, shower off well and wipe hairline, then either keep cap on or let hair down over towels. I used this method several times with no problems at all, even though I obviously am sensitive to cinnamon. Anyway, this was my hair after one and a half hours:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/6xhoney2.jpg

I really like this colour, but of course I don't know if it's due to the honey or cinnamon. This was too much conditioner for my hair though, it doesn't feel anywhere near as soft as when I use less/no conditioner. It didn't feel crunchy or dry, just kind of lank, like it does if I try to use conditioner after washing.

Today I made a mixture of 25g cassia and enough orange juice to make a thick paste, then let it stand for an hour. I don't know if this is really necessary for dye release or not, but there was definitely dye as I now have yellow fingernails! I then added about 3 tablespoons of honey and 3 of EVOO. I know this is a lot of oil, but I have used EVOO like this in cassia before, and in my experience it makes it a lot easier to rinse and doesn't leave a residue. I left it on my hair two hours. This was my hair after:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/cassia3.jpg

It feels much better than after the honey/cinnamon, thicker, smooth and soft. I have no dryness from the cassia, or tangling.

So, I think the cinnamon/honey did bring out red this time, but the cassia/honey just made it a bit darker. Now I (doubly) wish I hadn't added cinnamon! The next honey treatment I do will be without cinnamon, I'd really like to see whether it reacts with the cassia which is now on my hair.

I did a honey/cinnamon treatment over the weekend and a cassia treatment today. First, the honey/cinnamon treatment. This was after the previous honey treatment, so is a 'before' shot:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/4xhoney.jpg

I decided to try a more dilute honey mixture, so mixed 1 part honey with 2 parts conditioner and 1 part water. I wanted to use cinnamon too, but this mixture was obviously pretty watery and I wanted to really get it well into my hair, so I decided to put it on my hair first and then apply cinnamon afterwards (a method mentioned in the cinnamon thread). This turned out to be a REALLY bad idea, as anywhere I split cinnamon on my shoulders/hairline, even for a few seconds, burnt. I was surprised, as with my previous method of using cinnamon I had never had any problems. I am definitely going back to my old method - this was to mix the cinnamon with the honey etc first, apply to head in shower avoiding scalp as much as possible, put hair in plastic disposable shower cap, shower off well and wipe hairline, then either keep cap on or let hair down over towels. I used this method several times with no problems at all, even though I obviously am sensitive to cinnamon. Anyway, this was my hair after one and a half hours:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/6xhoney2.jpg

I really like this colour, but of course I don't know if it's due to the honey or cinnamon. This was too much conditioner for my hair though, it doesn't feel anywhere near as soft as when I use less/no conditioner. It didn't feel crunchy or dry, just kind of lank, like it does if I try to use conditioner after washing.

Today I made a mixture of 25g cassia and enough orange juice to make a thick paste, then let it stand for an hour. I don't know if this is really necessary for dye release or not, but there was definitely dye as I now have yellow fingernails! I then added about 3 tablespoons of honey and 3 of EVOO. I know this is a lot of oil, but I have used EVOO like this in cassia before, and in my experience it makes it a lot easier to rinse and doesn't leave a residue. I left it on my hair two hours. This was my hair after:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/cassia3.jpg

It feels much better than after the honey/cinnamon, thicker, smooth and soft. I have no dryness from the cassia, or tangling.

So, I think the cinnamon/honey did bring out red this time, but the cassia/honey just made it a bit darker. Now I (doubly) wish I hadn't added cinnamon! The next honey treatment I do will be without cinnamon, I'd really like to see whether it reacts with the cassia which is now on my hair.

firebird

From your first before pictures - post honey treatments but pre cinnamon honey treatments - your hair has less of a richer colour - there is no reddish tinge to it.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

The problem is that you used cassia in between - so determining whether the cinnamon added any colour or the honey is reacting with the cassia is a bit difficult - if I have this all straight. Also the lighting in the pictures varies - that is always a challenge.

Looking at the latest honey cinnamon result - I see more lightening, less red.

However - post cassia with honey added - your hair is definitely redder IMO - so I think that it is a honey cassia reaction.

Thanks ktani, I see what you mean. The more I look at the pictures, the harder I find it is to tell what is redder/lighter! I'm going to discipline myself to experiment with one thing at a time, and drop the cinnamon for now, as I'd really like to find out more about how honey and cassia possibly interact.

firebird

This is a straight cinnamon and conditioner, no honey result from the cinnamon thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=43681&postcount=25

I do not see added red - it is a bit lighter but there was red in the hair before too.

And these are honey cinnamon results on black hair - from the net - there is more brown than red that I see. Click on each picture to enlarge.
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

What we do not know is - how long it takes - if there is any cinnamon colour - for it to wash out.

This is going to very interesting, IMO.

firebird

Here are pictures of what cinnamon colour is supposed to look like. Your hair does not appear more brown or golden in any picture to me.

Cinnamon dye flake colour
http://www.onestopcandle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OSC&Product_Code=DFCN025&Category_Code=CDF (http://www.onestopcandle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OSC&Product_Code=DFCN025&Category_Code=CDF)

Cinnamon colour - considered to be yellow/brown
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cinnamon (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cinnamon)

ETA: My mistake for not finding the the right information on cassia cinnamon, the one probably most often used in honey lightening treatments.
According to this, See " Cinnamon and cassia"cassia is "generally a medium to light reddish brown..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

The more complicated question to me is - in your case - (lynnala used honey only) - whether the cinnamon reacted with the cassia in addition to the honey - to produce red.

In light of the current discussions on cassia, honey and hair colour changes, I find these excerpts from a recent thread, particularly interesting.

Originally posted by Jeni
"and bowl 3-100% cassia, mixed with tea and water."
"The side with 100% cassia is red, slightly, very slightly, lighter then the 50/50, but still very much henna red. I'm confused, why is my hair red? All 3 samples came out pretty close to the same color... Could it of been the tea? "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020)

There were several theories in the following posts as to why these results may have occurred.

From the information in the links I posted earlier today in this thread - I think that it was the tea, possibly reacting with the chrysophanic acid in the cassia the same way honey may have on firebird's hair.

In lynnala's case, it may be that the honey in the rinse she used was too diluted to help the chrysophanic acid turn red, and just turned it gold instead.

*Off topic*
Hi, just to let everyone know, it was the tea. I just did a cassia treatment (EVOO, coconut oil, warm water and a squirt of 3MM), no red hair, though my hair is now more golden blond less light ash blond. In case anyone is interested the red hair is still there, apperntly the tea is tuff stuff. Looks really kind of cool braided with my blond hair, so Im not too upset about it....

Jeni

Jeni

Thank you so much for posting - you are not off topic at all.

It goes to cassia being subject to colour change with additives - tea in your case for red.

In firebird's case for red, I think it is the honey, possibly the cinnamon too but honey was added to the cassia - the only cinnamon would be what might be left on her hair from the honey cinnamon treatment. In lynnala's case, it appears that the honey rinse reacted with a cassia treatment that was fading. So - you never know but the odds I think, favour the honey.

And thank you for posting your new recipe to illustrate the point and the new results.

I am sure that the colours all blend beautifully.

It is very interesing IMO, that the red is long lasting in your case - whether that is desired or not.

Jeni used organic black chai tea mixed with cassia.

I was not sure exactly what spices were in the tea.

Here are 2 slightly different ingredient lists for black chai tea.

"Organic Cinnamon Bark, Organic Cardamom Seed, Organic Ginger Root and Organic Clove Bud ..."
http://www.tealand.com/Black_Chai_Tea.aspx

"... Black tea, Clove, Star Anise, Ginger, Safflower, Cardamom and Cinnamon."
http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/Classic_Chai_p/bh100.htm

This gets even more interesting now IMO, in light of the fact that other spices have been considered for honey lightening recipes, like cardamom.

It may turn out, that for cassia users, certain spices should be left out of honey lightening recipes.

Perhaps cinnamon ha